The ethics of a cheap off-shore wedding dress

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By: Taylor McBrideCC BY 2.0
I think that stealing a wedding dress design and having it made in China (in a place that is probably a sweatshop) is really unethical. It upsets me, as it both screws the original designer (who is probably a creative type who you would want to hang out with) and the workers … all for a dress you will wear once.

Then again, I am not poor, and I can afford to pay the designer direct for some of the dresses I like and I will check that they are not made unethically.

Am I just being a judgmental bitch cos I have the money to “do the right thing” here? Am I assuming that people have not thought about these issue, but actually they have and are fine with it? -Anonymous

What a thick and meaty ethical question! Thanks so much for bringing the issue up. Ultimately, it's up to each of us to decide where their consumer values align — this is bigger than weddings. This is about pirating music, buying local produce, and world trade issues. I'm no consumer values expert, so really all I can do is share my personal perspective and values…

Since I tend towards slightly odd clothes that I generally can't find in mainstream stores, I get a thrill out of supporting independent designers — I love the individuality that indie designs provide. When I was planning my wedding, this value translated into not being attracted in the big ticket dresses that I couldn't afford. My goal was to work with a couple local indie designers/seamstresses to custom-make something awesome and unique that I could re-wear. I had about a $500 budget, and integrated pieces of a cheap prom dress made in China and hand-crafted elements.

While I personally had no interest in wearing a designer dress, I will say that I have no qualms with off-shore reproduction of name-brand designer wedding dresses through online spots like Kaersen. Many of the commercially-made dresses available at mainstream wedding boutiques are made in China anyway, and I don't think you're doing something inherently awful by taking money out of a big name designer's pocket. Vera Wang is a rich woman who dresses movie stars. The $5k you're not spending on one of her wedding dresses isn't going to put her in the poor house. I kind of equate reproducing a designer wedding dress with pirating a Beyonce album.

That said, I think it's a different game if you're reproducing a dress made by a small, independent designer. And heaven forbid if you're reproducing a dress by an indie seamstress. That just doesn't fit with my personal values of prioritizing indie designers. (Then again, part of the magic of indie designers is that they create dresses that aren't easy to rip off. What off-shore dress factory is going to crank-out hand-dyed silk in your custom colors?)

This is a way bigger question than just wedding dresses though, and you're right, anonymous: having money gives you the luxury of thinking through this decision with your consumer values held high. For some brides, their consumer values are a big priority in their lives that they translate into their wedding planning.

Other brides may be focused on different offbeat aspects of their wedding — like hand-knitting scarves for each of their bridesmaides, or making sure their gay minister friend officiates, or hand-baking 200+ wedding cupcakes. These folks may think to themselves, “I like that dress I saw in the window, but I spent all my budget on organic catering and my amazing photographer. I'll just have the dress made in China.”

Like every other wedding decision, it's an issue of picking your battles, identifying your priorities, and compromising to make the best choice you can.

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Comments on The ethics of a cheap off-shore wedding dress

  1. This issue is beyond wedding dresses. You have similar considerations every time you purchase anything. Where was it made? Where was its components made? How much does the factory pollute? How are the workers treated? Unless you buy everything second hand (which still requires someone to have purchased it new in the first place) it is a dilemma that you cannot escape.

  2. I will preface this by saying that it is up to each bride/ couple to set the priorities for their wedding, and wholeheartedly agree with “picking your battles, identifying your priorities, and compromising to make the best choice you can.”

    That having been said, I’d just like to address a couple of concerns that I have regarding offshore knockoff dresses.

    I value my local small businesses, whether they be an independent coffee shop, the local car dealer, or a bridal shop. The shop where I am getting my (lower cost) designer Made in China dress employees about a dozen people. I can somewhat put myself at rest knowing that my purchase does go towards making sure 12 people in my area continue to have a job.

    I have a deep, deep appreciation for indie designers. Recognizing that Vera Wang – and this according to Wikipedia – came from a wealthy family, in my mind, I have to question at what point a designer becomes “big enough” for it to be acceptable to copy their designs. She won’t miss a $5k sale, and perhaps it is a high class problem for an indie designer, too, if they get to the level where their designs are in such demand that someone decides to make knock-offs.

    My final question is this – where does one draw the line on when a designer is big enough to they won’t miss the sale lost to a copycat?

    At the end of the day, we all make trade-offs. I set a modest dress budget as well, and perhaps, were I rewind 6 months, I might have gone the route of an indie designer, or a used dress, but there is so much else I’m doing to support small/local/indie businesses, that I’m still able to sleep at night, designer Chinese dress and all!

  3. I recognize the desire to support “indie” designers but just because they are smaller doesn’t make their designs any more “theirs” than those of a big name designer. The work of an artist is still theirs, even if they have chosen to outsource the production of that art (or in this case dress) to China.

    I fully understand the desire not to purchase something that was made in a sweatshop in China, but that is something very different than stealing the artistic work of someone else. Just because Beyonce or Vera Wang has made it big doesn’t give someone the right to steal from them. Their work is still theirs, and if you want it you should really pay for it.

    I guess this is a sore subject, since my boyfriend is a musician. I would hate to think that at some point people would decide that his music is “ok to steal” because he got big. Remember, those artists probably did a lot of work to get to the point that they were “big” and they deserve to profit from it if enough people like what they do.

    • I somewhat agree. However, I also know the nature of the creative industries and it is also not uncommon for those who have made it big to “borrow” or outright steal from their fellow artists as well. It’s not like there aren’t any instances where a big-name designer ripped off designs of a small-name independent designer without citing their inspiration – or where a big-name artist in general borrowed music from a lesser-known artist without giving credit.

      At the end of the day, the subject constitutes a very slippery slope. And a lot of it boils down to doing research and making the most informed decisions that you and your budget can handle. At least when it comes to wedding planning.

  4. I agree with Ashley. If you considering using ideas from an indie designer stealing, I’m not sure how stealing from a “big-name” designer is any different from an “indie” designer. An analogy that pops in my mind is shoplifting. For example, does that mean shoplifting from Wal-Mart is okay, but not your local music store?

  5. The first thing that comes to mind for me is, when does the dress go from being an original design by someone else, to being an original for YOU? If someone were to copy a dress in its entirety, and pass it off as their own, that to me is pirating, and is unethical.

    However, once you take this dress’s hemline, that dress’s sleeve, this other dress’s neckline, then you are no longer copying a designer’s dress but designing your own dress with inspiration from several other dresses. That, to me, is in no way unethical.

    I rarely love every aspect of a dress, so I would be more likely to take parts of several dresses to make one I love. To me, that more akin to designing my own than stealing someone else’s.

    Re: music – Jason Mraz (per Wikipedia, so take it as you wish) encourages people to make bootleg copies of his concerts, so not all musicians who have made it big have a problem with people copying their music.

    • I so agree with your custom, “inspired” dress idea. Being a bit of a photoshop wiz myself, that’s what I’ve done…incorporated 5 different dresses into one. I don’t see anything unethical about that. It’s my own custom creation.

      As for the other side of the argument, the sweatshops of China, I always look at it this way: if EVERYONE stopped buying from China, those poor women earning $2 a day would suddenly be out of a job. $2 may not be much, and while I agree it should be more, $2 is still $2! I think we need to think up better ways to help end poverty in China than simply boycotting, because that hurts the employees more than the big corporations. But then, that’s just my opinion.

      • Hmmm. That sounds like justifying exploitation to me.

        If more people voiced their concern and boycotted their products, these horrific places would have to lift their game. This has already happened in some factories in China, but not everywhere, and then look at Bangladesh. No matter how ‘poor’ we might think we are, those of us living in the Western world are living in the top 10%. We have it so good – I just don’t see how anyone can justify contributing to the suffering that our rampant consumerism is generating for others.

        • I understand where you are coming from, but the fact of the matter is most people have NO idea how many of their products come from sweatshops around the world… Including the expensive full price designer gown… If it was sewn here, I guarantee the fabric and notions are from overseas… BTW, you’re not out of the woods when you see a “made in America” label, Sweatshops don’t only exist overseas either!

          Think about it… your flowers, your gown, the reception food (let’s not even discuss where the diamond in your ring came from) are you making sure all that is ethically sourced?

  6. I think that the real travesty is the mainstream bridal industry as a whole taking advantage of some woman willing to spend more than they can afford because it’s their one day. Not only is this unethical, but it punishes those brides with a more realistic mindset.

    I think that the trade off is if a bride purchases a reproduction online or from China, she risks poor quality and delayed shipping. If she purchases from a “local boutique” she risks getting overcharged, additional fees, and unruley alteration fees.

    If someone knows a happy medium, please share!!!

    • Etsy! I finally settled on a very expensive (I didn't know it was expensive when I tried it on! Evil bridal shop consultants!) dress and knew there was no way to afford. So, I turned to one of my favorite sites and put out a request for someone to make a dress similar to that one, for about the $500 that I could afford (which was pushing it, really). I had several bids, and I vetted everyone carefully and ended up with an awesome dress!

      (Also, I realize this thread is a little old, but I couldn't resist.)

      • Ashley, I am curious how you were able to vet them? The etsy designer I am looking at is in China and says he makes them all by hand, but how do I know that’s true?

        Thanks for sharing!

        • I know this is a super-old question, but I see it has remained unanswered, so I wanted to pitch in. The only real way to vet Etsy shops is to carefully examine their feedback. The feedback system, currently, is frustratingly simplistic and does not show you the exact number of neutrals or negatives, and link you to them, like ebay does. I wish that feature would be implemented on Etsy! Unfortunately, you have to go page by page, searching for complaints. For many of those Chinese shops, there are hundreds of pages!

          There is also a possibility of finding off-site reviews of a seller, but either way, you are limited to in-depth, eye-bleeding research. Or I suppose you could take to the forums and risk the seller seeing your post. XD

    • I’ve got one: charity shops. In the UK there are a range of charity shops that have full-on bridal floors with dresses, shoes, veils and bridesmaids dresses, some of which are actually new and ex-stock from closed down bridal boutiques.

      The dresses are still in good nick, worn once at most, and are a fraction of the cost of going to a ‘proper’ shop. I went to Oxfam in Cambridge for mine – £125, in perfect condition save one tiny snag on an underlayer no-one will see. I paid £100 in alterations at a local seamstress, plus £50 for an optional steam clean.

      £275, all in. The cheapest dress off the rail at the boutique I went into was £800, without alteration or fitting or whatever.

      What’s the ethics angle? Well I supported a local independent seamstress, and gave £125 to a charity. Then I bought my veil from a different charity shop (the Big C cancer charity has a bridal floor in Norwich) so another £40 goes to cancer research.

      No rip-offs or dodgy Chinese sellers involved, I get the dress I want, and I donate to charity. I fail to see a downside.

      • I think it depends on what you want and what is available at such charity shops. I’m not above considering all available options and weighing them in turn.

        Charity shops must be sourced, and the racks must be carefully scoured. Pre-owned dress stores (online or physical) must also be carefully searched, particularly if you want something very specific. Custom designers on Etsy must be vetted and examined. So all in all, it’s a matter of personal preference.

  7. It would be awesome to be able to afford a designer gown…it would also be awesome to not have to buy a dress made in China. The gown I want is too expensive. I found a knock off dress, but the idea makes me feel terrible because the designer although expensive, is still not a major designer. Therefore I have chosen not to get that dress at all. I feel if it was meant to be I wouldn’t feel awful about the decision, which ever choice.

  8. “For example, does that mean shoplifting from Wal-Mart is okay, but not your local music store?”

    If you’re asking me to clarify my personal position, then the answer is yes. I’m not saying I’d shoplift at all, but I see shoplifting from Wal-Mart as less morally objectionable than shoplifting from a locally owned store. Heck, some people would see shoplifting from Wal-Mart as an act of protest against their awful employee labor policies.

    I’m not that radical in my personal consumer values, but I definitely value indie bizzes more than international corporate retailers.

    • Old article but have you considered all of the people that would affect?

      Shoplifting from WalMart doesn’t hurt the bigwigs. It hurts the employees, many of whom are living paycheck to paycheck and probably only working there because there aren’t other options, and too much shrink means no more job.

      Same for Vera – she won’t be hurt, but her employees will be. Selling less dresses? Well, you certainly don’t need as many people making or designing them and so they are out of a job too.

  9. As a voracious consumer, I have thought about this a lot. I’m comparatively poor but I like and appreciate nice things. To me, its always wrong to buy knock-offs. I don’t care if its a purse, a wedding dress, or a pair of shoes. The fact of the matter is that someone, somewhere took the time to create that “thing,” whatever it may be. It came out of their creative process. If you can’t afford Vera Wang or Maggie Sottero, then don’t even entertain the thought. Don’t peruse the pages of Brides magazine looking for a dress that you will be sick over b/c you can’t afford it. If you love their design, and no other, then its worth it to figure out a way to have the dress of your dreams without stealing someone’s design and having it made for yourself.Its the same as figuring out how you can get that amazing mixed media piece to hang above your couch. They came up with something that speaks to you. Fashion is wearable art. A person should never be punished for being sucessful. Its never okay to steal from anyone, no matter how wealthy they are. Stealing is stealing.

  10. “Just because Beyonce or Vera Wang has made it big doesn’t give someone the right to steal from them. Their work is still theirs, and if you want it you should really pay for it.”

    I understand the sentiment behind this. However, is that Vera Wang wedding dress (many of which are very simple) worth $5000+ dollars? I feel that there comes a point when it goes beyond selling your artwork and into purposely trying to rip people off. What does the production of those dresses cost, especially when the work making the dresses is still probably outsourced to China or elsewhere anyways?

    I don’t feel any of her dresses are worth $5000 and I know if I went to an indie designer here I could get an original dress for much less than that. I feel like the difference between Vera Wang and the indie designer is that, the indie designer is not trying to rip me off. I can guarantee that every stitch in that dress will be made by that local seamstress, and I’m helping an individual stay employed at a fair wage. Vera Wang, is not doing that. Vera Wang, like much of the Wedding industry, is taking advantage of the outrageous amount of money brides will shell out for their “big day”.

    I guess I also have a bit of the “Robin Hood” mentality about it (you know, still from the rich, give to the poor). Probably because I come from a family of service members and blue collar workers whose hard work and service to their country has earned them only a modest salary. My fiance will make around $29,000 this year while in Iraq running 12 hour missions, getting shot at and worrying about IEDs all while being thousands of miles away from everyone and everything he loves. I think Vera Wang will be just fine without getting $5,000 dollars of that money for my wedding dress. We need that money to put food on our table – she, however, will still be living quite comfortably without it. Therefore, no I wouldn’t lose any sleep over having someone else (probably my mom or a seamstress we know, though) sew a knock-off designer gown.

    That’s just how I look at it, though. I’m glad that Ariel opens these issues up for discussion because it is nice to see this question answered from different perspectives.

  11. Well then I guess our views differ:)

    I know that Wal-Mart is an international corporation (and maybe I should have used a different company like Costco that isn’t as contentious), but even large corporations are made up of the employees like the cashiers, door greeters, and stockers. Or in the case of the wedding industry, the people who sew the dresses, etc. A big-name designer doesn’t consist of only the rich big-namer, but hundreds of employees as well.

    Just to push the envelope and thought process a little further (and this is to whoever feels there’s a difference b/t big business and indie designers, not just Ariel): At what point is it okay to steal from large companies verses indie businesses? At $1 million in revenue? $150 billion? When it’s publicly-traded? A certain number of employees? What about franchises, where local folks might own the business, but they have a national name? What about corporations that provide goods that can’t be provided by indie businesses (i.e., electronics)? Should they be valued more? What if the indie businesses purchase their raw goods at Wal-Mart?

    Lots to think about! This is a good post though 🙂

    • The point at which I would consider it morally acceptable to steal from a company is the point at which I consider it morally objectionable to buy the product at all. I dont shoplift, but I have, on occasion, shopped at target, or walmart, and when I have, I have consistently fought with myself in the dressing room, because it seems more ethical to me to steal from them than pay, with the supporting an evil corporation that treats their employees that badly that goes along with it. (the answer for me, obviously, is to not shop there at all.). Because I’m a coward, and would be mortally embarrassed if I were caught stealing, I’ve never done it. When I shop at an ethically run business, or even a not absolutely evil business, I have no such moral struggle. And as far as indie businesses go, stealing would be stealing from my community, or a community much like it, and totally not ok. Just figured I’d give insight into where this line is for one person.

  12. FWIW clothing is not “copyrighted” so it’s not really pirating to make knock-offs of dress designs.
    I’d also like to point out that a lot of these factories in China are the same ones making the dresses for big name designers, they just make extra ones to sell for less because they don’t have the big designer name attached to it.
    So what’s more ethical? Taking advantage of these laborers and not paying them their “fair share” from the expensive dresses or just buying direct from them and taking money away from the designer? It’s something that everyone has to come to terms with on their own.
    I, myself, am pretty ambiguous about it all. I’m making my own dress so it’s a moot point for me.

  13. I’m with Ashley… I think copying a design is copying a design. I love indie designers too, goodness knows, and I’m not a fan of Vera Wang’s prices, but! I’m uncomfortable with the idea that if someone becomes successful or very profitable, they somehow are less deserving of their rights as artists. Following this line of thinking through means that while Indie designers are cool in our books now, if they grow to big or too successful, we will no longer value them, or will consider them “sellouts” who we can steal from. Since I’d love nothing more than to see great indie designers making tons of money off their amazing talent, I don’t want to think this way.

    That said, I think my bigger problem is having your wedding dress made overseas in conditions that are probably not great. I totally agree that you have to pick your battles, so I’m saying this with a large grain of salt, but at least theoretically there is a difference between buying a dress off a rack that maybe was made in China, and personally commissioning a dress that you know is a copy of another artists work to be made in China under not great conditions. It’s the difference between passive and active ethical consumer choices.

    All that said, I also agree with Nikki. If you take a design and use it as inspiration, that is absolutely fair use.

    • As a seamstress and aspiring designer myself…. If I can look at a dress, figure out on my own how much fabric was used, where the seams are, darts, bead, etc. all go, I've earned the right to make that dress. Drafting patterns from something you see in a window (or photos, or drawings) is not easy by any stretch of the imagination. Furthermore, that dress won't be the same designer dress. You could opt to change the hem, move a zipper, open up the back or neckline, omit beading entirely… Some designers also sell their patterns to commercial pattern companies for $15 instead of $5000, so this could be a more ethical way to get the designer dress you want, support a local seamstress and not steal from anyone.

      • Marcia, I actually agree as a fellow designer (although I’d absolutely love to learn how to sew a lot better). A lot of times, designers draw their inspiration from fellow designers – whether they are famous/infamous and charging thousands or lesser-known independent creatives who work from client to client.

  14. This is an interesting blog post and discussion. I prefer to shop locally, but I did consider ordering my wedding dress from Kaersen because I hadn’t found anything I liked at my favorite shop.

    In the end, and this might be an option for Ana in comment 6, I went to a local boutique which sells designer clothing and wedding gowns, and I purchased a bridesmaid’s gown for about $350. My gown was made in the US, and I kept (at least some of) my dollars in the local economy.

    If you’re interested, this is my dress, color and all.

  15. artists/designers copy and inspire each other all the time.
    how many musicians sing cover songs? (a lot, including: madonna, n.i.n., iron and wine).
    how many people have ikea furniture? those are cheap,knock off designs.
    how many people buy clothes at target? guess what, part of my friend’s job at target corp. is to go shopping to find high end clothes to replicate for target.
    how many people have posters/copies of an original piece of artwork?
    how many people buy generic instead of name brand?
    it’s really all the same thing. part of the risk of being an artist/designer is people copying your work. but honestly, how many wedding dresses are truely original? their inspiration came from somewhere, most likely another wedding dress. i see nothing wrong if you see something you like, and you can do-it-yourself and make it cheaper… why not?

    • Musicians that sample music or cover songs pay royalties and set up licensing agreements so that whoever owns the rights to the song is compensated. Ikea furniture actually is not copied furniture, Ikea works with designers from all over to design unique furniture that can be easy assembled and require the most minimal of parts. Ikea furniture has a lower price point because they are able to ship flat and you do the work of putting it together. Reproductions of artwork are called prints and artists love to make money from selling prints. It is much easier to shut down a company or individual that is illegally making prints of a piece of art than it is to shut down someone copying your dress design. Artwork can easily be copyrighted while the garment industry is still struggling with what is even allowed to be copyright or patented. And when you say generic, the first thing I think of is medication. New drugs on the market are protected by a 20 year patent (though that patent starts out at the infancy of the drug long before it goes to market), so drug makers then have an exclusivity period to reclaim all the billions of dollars they put into research and development. Once their exclusivity period ends, then generic drug makers can come in and make to their hearts content. I think the only other thing that comes to mind that I would call “generic” would be maybe food items. I have never heard of and would never call clothes generics. Knock-off is definitely a better term. If only designers were granted those same protections like drug companies, but then again it is such a difficult area to police because it is art and art is open to interpretation. But I definitely agree with you on your statement about how original can something really be. I get it, some things have been designed so many times, how many different variations can there be? I think it’s when it falls into the whole blatant rip off that that is what upsets people. I have seen on that Alibaba site where there are loads of knock-offs, and have seen dresses posted that use the same runway picture and use the designers name in the title. To me that is not right. Go ahead sell your knock-off dresses, but don’t put that it is a Vera Wang or some other designer. I’m sure she did not approve of her designs or name being used there. Say that it is a knock-off or just describe the style of dress and let the consumer decide if they want the real thing versus the fake.

  16. I agree with Ashley. It doesn’t seem just to say that just because someone has “made it big”, which basically just means someone has taken notice of what a good designer you are, then it becomes okay to rip you off.

    That being said, art is always being ripped off in one way or another. How many ARTISTES do you know that think they’re individuals but clearly are ripping off Pollock or Worhol? But to copy something and call it an original is a crime.

    But I also can’t blame brides who can’t afford the price of an individual OR big-name designer. I’m not wealthy and I can’t afford to buy all the local organic food and carbon-free clothes I would like to. I mean, let’s face it — Fancy Pony Land is just as outrageously expensive as Vera Wang. Indie or no, I can’t justify $2000 for ANY dress, no matter a dress I wear once. Why not buy for $200 from a REALLY small-time seamstress and donate the other $1800 to a worthy cause?

    I like being an individual, but I don’t think that individualism should come with a high price tag, just because it’s “different.” Then again, I disagree with the outrageous prices of art pieces for their “uniqueness”, which in my opinion just support the long-standing idea that only the wealthy can appreciate art in their own home. But that’s another issue altogether.

    Even when you do pick an indie designer, I wouldn’t assume that you’re automatically picking an environmentally or ethically “cleaner” gown. Where did they get their fabric, where was their sewing machine made, or their yarn or thread? The textile industry in India and China is huge.

    So I guess I’m torn — yes, I do find it objectionable that people rip one another’s art off, indie or no. But the fact that it cost so much in the first place (either for “individuality” or for the “brand name”) is equally objectionable, and I can’t blame brides who just want to look the way they imagined on their wedding day.

  17. I’m with the idea that these things are often copied, not copyrighted, and more often than not, these are the same dress factories working for the major designer. Honestly, I think working directly with them (the dress-makers in China) is closer to fair-trade than buying it from a bridal shop. They set the price. To you, it’s cheap. To them, it’s almost certainly more than they’d be paid to make the same dress for a major wholesaler.
    We all know the WIC is trying to line their pockets with us. I can’t support that. I can’t. I’m all for the little guy, but I make $26K a year. I’d rather line pockets in China, thanks. Where the tiny amount I can afford to spend goes a lot further.

  18. Ariel, thanks for opening up this discussion. I appreciate everything being said here. As a person with a strong sense of social justice I was so confused by what route to go when choosing my wedding attire. I had wanted to revamp my mom’s own homemade dress to avoid all the issues (small budget, concern for how the dress is made, etc.). Unfortunately, mom is a much shorter woman and the fabric is falling apart so I had to deal with the issues.

    Everyone here brings a lot of good questions to the table. It certainly is a battle of the lesser evils, especially for those on really tight budgets. I’m just glad to know there are brides out there contemplating their social responsibility and attempting some solution rather than making choices out of selfishness and ignorance.

    In the end I purchased from a local shop that carries only affordable (not ripped off) designs. The other compromise was letting my mom purchase my dress and fulfill her dream of seeing her eco-feminist daughter wear a white wedding dress. But that’s a whole different battle.

  19. I come at this from a slightly different perspective since I create my own knitting patterns and frequently see knit items in stores or whatever that I want to make for myself. I’ve looked into the copyright stuff and there is no legal objection to making knock-offs. So, legally, it isn’t stealing. Legally, even if it looks the same, you’re fine as long as you never saw a pattern.

    That said, knock-offs are kind of sketchy and if someone wants to buy something that I’ve made from looking at a picture, I’ll usually say no or just charge them for the yarn. However, I would not equate this copying to pirating, since one is illegal and one is not. There’s also a difference between reproduction and theft…a big one that should be recognized.

    In many ways, I agree with Jess. I can’t justify purchasing a Wai-Ching or Fancy Pony dress anymore than I can justify purchasing a Vera Wang, though I’m not sure I would completely equate Wai-Ching with Vera Wang, all things considered. Still, they’re all outside my price range. Part of my “off-beat statement” is not spending an arm-and-a-leg on a dress. However, I object to David’s Bridal, so I’m buying from a local seamstress from $450, which IS in my price range and I know where my money is going. My dress will be custom made to my measurements with my fabric and the pattern I picked out along with any embellishments I want. Score! And I can feel good about my choice while still staying in budget.

  20. Ariel, I don’t think an indie business, an indie designer or indie anything can be more valuable than a non-indie designer or their business. It doesn’t make any sense. Does this mean the more successful and less indie your website becomes the less we should value it? Of course not!

    Generally something is not considered indie anymore when it becomes successful and popular. I don’t think you can say something is less valuable because they became successful. your favourite indie designer could easily hit the big time. Will you no longer like them and think its ok to steal from them then? At what point exactly in my success will it be ok for people to start stealing my designs? Very strange attitude, I cannot get my head around it!

    I guess its this mix of opinions and attitudes that make the world go round!

  21. It’s interesting to read the concerns around this issue. For me, it’s not about stealing art (which is an issue in itself) but rather, human rights. David’s Bridal runs a full on sweat shop in China. Pay, working conditions and living conditions are sub par. I personally do not want to support a business like that. yes, I had the money to get a Wai-Ching dress and am proud that the woman who measured me will be the one making it! but the truth is, if a bride can’t afford a designer or even Indie gown there are ways to make it work and not support the machine. There a all sorts of consignment shops, less expensive exciting options (Ariel’s outfit can speak to that).
    The fact is, this is how I live my life. I am conscious about where the food, clothing, etc. come from and if I have to sacrifice a little more money to keep it local and organic, that’s what I’m gonna do.

  22. Shoshanna — would love to know who your seamstress is! The problem with going with small-time seamstresses is the risk of getting someone who isn’t so good at what they do as you’d like. Good seamstresses, especially ones who build quality dresses from stratch, are so hard to come by nowadays. As much as I would like to support small-time tailors, I also still want a polished-looking dress.

    • Ask to see sample dresses and a portfolio 🙂 As a budding designer myself I definitely keep items I make so that I can show people my sewing style. Any seamstress that can’t show you samples or have a portfolio within in arms reach is not someone you should do business with.

  23. I think that there are two separate issues that we need to parse out here:

    1) Is copying a design stealing?
    2) If it is, is it more “ok” to steal from one group than another?

    If you believe that copying a design (without the pattern) is not stealing, then it really doesn’t matter. I’d argue that most dresses are pretty similar, and you’ll find a lot of overlap within the market. Additionally, when you pay for a designer dress you aren’t just paying for the look, you are paying for the construction, the expertise, and the labor.

    If you do believe that copying a design is stealing, I can’t see how it is better to steal from one group than another. Yes, one is having an arguably harder time making a living, but your moral culpability is the same. Stealing is stealing.

    Additionally, when you download music, Beyonce might not be hurt, but she only gets something like 10 cents per album. The rest goes to a number of different people who work fairly close to minimum wage; from the sound editors to graphic designers to CD manufacturers.

    • Total copying the way the .com Chinese gown companies are doing it IS stealing! They are using the original Designer’s runway and pr photos to sell the garment, then send their version. That is theft from the original Designer and or company. Not only is it misleading to the customer, but since it was bought from OVERSEAS the laws won’t protect the consumer… unless she paid via Paypal and can file a claim.

  24. “I’m not saying I’d shoplift at all, but I see shoplifting from Wal-Mart as way less morally objectionable than shoplifting from a locally owned store.”

    amen!!!

  25. Here’s another solution: if you find a designer dress you love, why not have your local indie seamstress recreate it for you?

    My 1950’s Dior dream dress would be impossible to find so I had my lovely seamstress who lives a few miles away recreate it for me. Cost about $250!

  26. “guess what, part of my friend’s job at target corp. is to go shopping to find high end clothes to replicate for target.”

    Same here! My friend was a design director at Target and Old Navy and all her time was spent shopping at expensive independent stores around the world to find designs to copy.

    • I knew Forever 21 stole designs (they have so many lawsuits against them), but I had no idea about Target and Old Navy. I haven’t bought clothes from them in so long, but I will add them to my not to buy from list. Since I started sewing I now examine hems and seams all the time at stores, and find that I just put things back on the rack when I see how poorly they are constructed. Personally I’d rather spend more at a store that produces clothes that are well put together and will last a long time then the stuff at Forever 21 and most of those big chain clothing stores. These stores know they are robbing you by selling you crappy clothes. They know you will have to re-purchase all the time. They know that shopping can turn into an addiction for people and they bank on it. They know they own you.

  27. I agree with Chris’ first post – this dilemma should be present in all of your consumption.

    That said, I think that what’s really to blame here is the WIC telling brides that they have to look perfect and that perfection comes in the form of an expensive, white, bridal gown. It’s really only been in the 20th century that there was even a bridal market. Before that, women wore their best dress or invested in garments they could dye or rework to get further use out of.

    Don’t get me wrong – I’m excited to get gussied up for my wedding day. I want to look fancier than I ever have the opportunity to do otherwise. But I will not do that at the cost of my financial future or to increase my wastefulness. I’ve purchased an off the rack bridal dress (maybe made in China?) that I can dye and shorten after the wedding and turn into a cocktail dress. At least my $300 will get more than one use.

  28. I’d like to second the previous poster who pointed out that the price of a designer gown encompasses far more than just the cultural cache attached to the brand. A dress from Vera Wang is worth that $5,000.00 not simply because her name is on the label but because it represents several hundred hours of labor by expert designers, drapers, tailors and seamstresses, all of whom deserve to be well compensated for their labor. When you choose to have a knockoff manufacutred in China it’s these people from whom you are stealing – not just Ms. Wang. An artist is an artist no matter where or how she chooses to exercise her talents, and the skilled craftspeople involved in the construction of a designer dress are no less worthy of compensation because they choose to work for a particular label than an independent designer.

  29. I must say I really don’t agree with your view point. Stealing from a big or small company is still stealing. Who says that big designers are any less creative than indie designers? Its just different and different does not necessarily mean bad. Does a lack of creativity in your eyes give you the right to steal from someone? Those big designers have to start somewhere. Even Walmart was a small hometown store in the very beginning. I may not agree with their ethics right now but stealing from big corporations really only hurts those working beneath the big guy. The cashiers, or in this case seamstresses, are the ones who will lose their jobs, not the CEOs.

    Maybe I have a different view point because I did buy a moderately priced designer dress (~$600). I do find the high end dresses absolutely disgusting but that’s their prerogative. Just remember you don’t need swarovski crystals or fabric flown in from France. If you happen to fall in love with the big designer dress you can always find something similar by a cheaper designer without having to resort to stealing. If you cannot afford that, think outside the box. That’s what offbeat brides do best. There’s always another option besides stealing.

  30. Well im not to sure if this has been talked about yet. But the way i look at it is that maybe its time for the “BIG TIME” Designers to lower there price. Im mean it’s because of their popularity and price that we have offshore factories and unsafe working conditions for the workers. Well it’s not fare i guess to put all the blame on them it is a case of supply and demand. But as consumer i feel like i have shopped my self in to a nasty corner were i have lost a lot of options. But these times call for us to all think out of the box and question what we are willing to do for our planet in general. The power lies in our hands and in our wallets. Let’s all just open our eyes and have more discussions like this to keep it us thinking. Thank you for all your thoughts. It has me thinking about how important my dress it and what choice will I make when my wedding day comes.

  31. @Amanda. I see your point in re: the astronomical price of wedding paraphernalia in the U.S., but disagree vehemently that the people to blame are the dress designers, caterers and other professionalsproviding these goods and services. A florist can charge $250.00 for a bouquet for one reason only – women are willing to pay $250.00 for an arrangement of flowers wrapped in twine. This is not “ripping someone off” so much as participating in a market economy in the way that one would reasonably expect.

    Personally, I find it frustrating and infantalizing when the argument is made that women become so emotionally addled by weddings that we can be excused for serious lapses in financial judgment. I’m an adult and, last I checked, didn’t trade my common sense for my enagement ring. I know what I can and can’t afford and it’s my job, not a venodr’s, to ensure that I don’t go over my budget.

  32. I have a BIG problem with the suggestion that it is ok to steal from successful people. Vera Wang, and others like her, worked hard to get where they are, and their talents and the value of their wares have been affirmed by many consumers, if not necessarily you. I would not steal $5k out of her purse, so I will not steal one of her dresses. Same goes for stealing from Wal-Mart, Beyonce, or anyone else who happens to have more than I do. There are plenty of people in the world who would probably consider me obnoxiously wealthy, based on my NYC apartment and my laptop and my ipod. I don’t think that justifies their stealing from me.

    If you want to have a unique fabulous dress that’s all about you, girl, getchoself one. If you want to have a Vera Wang design, you need to pay Vera Wang for it.

  33. I’m surprised how many people feel they can justify theft because ‘that person has enough money already.’ Who makes that decision? The cushy middle class existence seems like a luxury to many. How would you feel if a person with less than you stole from you?
    Like it or not, Vera Wang made her money because people appreciate/desire her work enough to pay that much for it. Are you really going to blame her or anyone else for that fact that brides are willing to shell out the big bucks for their dream dress/wedding? I don’t think she’s ‘taking advantage’ of anyone. It’s not like we’re children! Regardless of whether I can afford it or not, I have no interest in spending thousands of dollars on a dress, so I wont bother looking into big name designers.
    If you don’t think something is worth the price asked for, dont buy it. If you have a moral objection to a major company like Walmart, dont shop there. Simple as that. But stealing is just not okay imo. The answer to immorality is not more immorality. I prefer to take the higher ground.

  34. I just wanted to comment on one thing, not that anyone is saying to go shoplift from Wal-Mart…
    Individual stores definitely feel it when something is stolen. That’s one more thing that we paid for but couldn’t get reimbursed for by a customer. So we don’t make that money. So the store isn’t alloted as many hours as we need. So the employees are only scheduled 20 hours a week when they really need 30 to pay their bills. I think it’s a really good point that someone made that you’re not stealing from Beyonce or Wal-Mart’s CEO, you’re stealing from the little people who count on selling those products for a decent (and I use that word lightly) paycheck.
    If I could do it all over again I would probably try harder to find a dress at someplace other than David’s Bridal. I finally just caved and went there because I’m larger than any vintage dress I could find online and I couldn’t afford anything more than $500 (actually I couldn’t afford that either but whatever) but I still wanted something super fancy. I don’t feel great about it. In life I try to avoid things that are Made in China but I totally felt wedged between a rock and a hard place with this one.

  35. Ariel, thanks for opening this up.

    I agree with all the ladies who simply say **Stealing is stealing**.

    Jules, just above my post here, puts it very well, “If you cannot afford that, think outside the box.” Everyone who has mentioned the pressure to get something special for a wedding dress is also correct. Why would you change your values just for this one item?

    Ariel, you may want to reconsider your views on Walmart (I know you’ll think I’m crazy here, but bear with me). I realize Walmart *used to* have big problems, but I think they’ve addressed them (or are addressing them). Do a little research and you might be pleasantly surprised. Plus, such a big company–when they make changes, the changes are HUGE. I once saw organic cotton Spongebob pajamas there! I’ve visited several places in the US and abroad where the only place you could get organic produce was Walmart. I think that’s incredible–think about it, if Walmart wants organic produce, doesn’t that mean that a bunch of organic farmers get more business, and a bunch of consumers who would never otherwise get that food will be able to buy it?

    Sorry to veer away from the wedding dress conversation, but you’re right: it’s a bigger issue. Thanks for bringing it up.

  36. Eliza, please don’t feel guilty about your choices. We’re all just doing the best we can every day, and just reading your post I can tell that you are a person who does plenty to make the world a fair and equal place. Rock your dress and don’t fret!

  37. I agree with those that say stealing is never OK. However, I wouldn’t say that having a “knock-off” dress made can be considered stealing. No matter what, if a dress is made by a person different that the one who sews the Vera Wang dresses, or any “designer” dresses, that “indie” dress will be different. It’s fabric, cut, drape, detail, seams, quality, and overall appearance will be slightly different. Once someone puts art into the world, others will be inspired by it. It would be wrong to claim a dress style as your own if it is a copy.
    The truth is, there are those who can afford “designer” and those who cannot. People are not being taken advantage of unless they themselves allow it. Big name designers will keep making money off of those who desire to pay for the name. If designers were being negatively affected by people “copying” dresses, they would take action against it and/or cater to different clientele. Most designers do send their dresses to be made in China so ordering straight from China and paying less because there is no middle man or big name tag is not unethical to the designers. What should be considered is the ethics of supporting “sweat shops” and all of the complex/inconvenient decisions related to that mess.

  38. Is it really stealing from Vera Wang if you wouldn’t have splurged and bought the $5k dress anyway? It doesn’t matter if you pay someone else in China to make a knockoff dress or go down to David’s Bridal or hire a seamstress or whatever; Vera Wang isn’t getting that money either way. My old roommates pirate a lot of games and music, but it’s all stuff they never would have actually paid for, and then when they actually like something they’d buy the next album and concert tickets. I know I personally spent more money on music because the pirated stuff came first.

    With my wedding, I have really loved having a relationship with my vendors because otherwise there’s no way I would have been able to part with the money. The idea of spending $400 on a cake feels a lot better when I know it’s going to Chuck and Wayne, who I know and like. (Having a fabulous cake was something that I wanted though, otherwise I obviously wouldn’t have spent that much money on it. You know 300 people here could whip out something great on next to nothing, not to mention the people who are forgoing cake altogether!)

  39. Although at gut instinct I agree with Ariel’s statement that stealing from Wal-Mart wouldn’t be as morally objectionable as stealing from a local record shop, the whole argument at hand comes down to two things for me.

    1. Popularity. As several people have pointed out, Vera Wang and Fancy Pony are in similar price brackets. The difference is popularity. Vera Wang is popular– she is “THE” wedding dress lady. Fancy Pony and Wai Ching are the OBB equivalent, but OBB is much smaller than the WIC. I don’t see the to copy/steal issue as one of indie vs. mainstream sellouts, but as one of unpopular vs. popular. When I frame it that way to myself, I don’t like the idea of artists being punished for being well-liked.

    2. The only way you can really guarantee that your dress is 100% ethical according to whatever your ethics are is if you raised little cotton plants or silk worms or sheep to maturity, hand wove the fibers into fabric, and sewed the darn thing or got your neighborhood seamstress too. In a global world and global economy, there are few guarantees that every step of the way, that garment is ethically sound. I think all of us can do is try to make the best decisions we can, but as with the above popularity issue, the reason Wal Mart is bigger than the mom and pop is because their size and popularity allow them to do things mom and pop can’t– four dollar prescriptions for example. I sure hate Wal Mart for a lot of things, but if they didn’t benefit someone, they wouldn’t still be in business.

  40. Or…. you could just buy a dress made for you by someone in the good ole USA. Try cocomyles.com or ariadress.com for beautiful gowns tailor made for around $200! Support our US designers!

  41. I have to agree with Ariel. I put a ton of time into making choices for my wedding. I have a tight budget. But I didn’t go to China to get a reproduction of a Maggie Sottero or Vera (blah)Wang. (No offense to people who love Vera’s style it just isn’t mine and I personally love Maggie Sottero designs.) But I also believe that these people have tons of money and complain about getting ripped off. But America gets ripped off everyday. You can go out and buy a cd (which are made cheaply in China) and pay $20 that probably cost $1.50 to produce. Nothing against Beyonce, but the profit margin of almost 200%. Not cool.

    However, there are people out there struggling to make it work and have amazing design skills. Dingbat press for example. I love her work and she is working it even though she has a child with a chronic illness and when I order letterpress it will be from a small indie place like Dingbat or the girls at Peculair Pair.

    That’s also why I went to Chrissy to get my dress. Because she cares about her art, makes it each, and lovingly creates something wonderful for you. She doesn’t have mass production teams, sweatshops, or cheap labor unless you count herself. (I personally felt like I robbed her because my dress was only $400.)

    The backbone of America is the small family owned business… be it wedding dresses or anything else. Sure it is morally questionable to steal music… but to take a dress that will be mass produced and looks like every other puffy wedding dress on the market? Well, still morally questionable, but a crime? No it’s perfectly legal. You could ask anyone to make it cheap for you… what do you think girls do when they make a dress from scratch? or have it made… go off the basic idea from someone else. Usually, a big designer. Is that a crime to let an American make it?

    With the economy as it is… I know we all want to get our money’s worth… but the true crime in paying a designer the big bucks for a dress with her name, but not her sweat, blood, and tears in it? Paying for that design when some random person in factory made it. What’s the difference? Vera doesn’t hand sew those dresses. She puts her name on it and people buy it because her name is on it. I’d rather have a dress hand stitched for me personally than some dress that will be seen a billion times on a billion brides.

    SO…. the moral of this rant? If it feels morally wrong for you to do? Then don’t do it. But don’t judge other people because of what they do. Judging people and thinking you are better than them because of the choices you made and they didn’t is what’s really wrong.

  42. Well said in your last paragraph Amy! I love that this site is usually so positive and not about judging but about supporting each other’s rad ideas.

    Another said, “we are all just doing the best we can.” So true! Trying to live a 100% ethical life is impossible, as Meghan so eloquently described, so we each must try to make conscious decisions and use our buying power to make our voices heard by those who we feel need to make some changes.

    Spread the love.

  43. What a great topic. I think it comes down to making the best choice out of your options. To clarify, the “best”, meaning wherever your enviromental, economic, quality and ethical requirements meet. I personally do not agree with copying a design, whether a large or indie designer. There are so many smart budget options that are great solutions. Personally, I went with a Chrissy Wai-Ching (thanks to OB!) and would be hearbroken to find out someone had copied or disparaged all her hard work.

  44. I’ve actually given this issue a lot of thought, given how many companies, individuals etc I’ve seen selling off-season wedding dress designs for between $10-200 on ebay and around the world.

    First of all, all of the designs I’ve seen are from big name designers, or knockoffs thereof. None of these are indie designers being made. I suppose there might be the rare case of someone who would copy from a pattern that you sent them, but in that case you’d have to do the legwork of stealing an indie designer’s pattern! Stealthy!

    Other than that, the only risk to indie designers is that they could create their own pattern, draping, etc, just from looking at a picture of a dress, which some of them can do. But that’s not stealing, it’s BEING a designer. It may be inspired by a photograph, but it’s not the same pattern nor is it going to look exactly the same.

    The people I know who have worked in the wedding dress industry will tell you that nearly 100% of mainstream designers have “offshore” shops or sweatshops to get their sewing done. I can also say a lot about how completely NOT “people you’d want to hang out with” many of the designers are…but that’s not part of this discussion.

    The reason these independent seamstresses exist in China, etc, is because people accrue years of experience at sub-par wages, and then when designers no longer use the designs from the last season, they make some money taking in extra sewing. Is this theft? Well, sure; they didn’t craft the design themself. Is it fair? In my estimation, yes. The designers choose to go to a place knowing the workers will accept lower wages, health risks, etc. Is it fair for them to make a living wage by using their skills? I think so!

    Additionally, think about what you’re paying for one dress vs the other. If it’s possible to make a dress for 10 or 100 dollars while still making money, then you are paying somewhere upwards of 800 dollars for the name on your dress. That money isn’t going to the workers.

    So is there a difference between Walmart and a local indie store losing money? Yes — because at a local indie store, they’re making this stuff themselves, vs someone who is exploiting the people who stand to gain by Walmart losing a little bit of money.

    To be honest, the discussion comes off a tiny bit – unintentionally – racist to me. We don’t have any knowledge that the individuals on ebay are running sweatshops. In fact, it’s unlikely that someone that can customize measurements compltely, as well as colors, far more than a wedding dress designer can is running a sweatshop, because the purpose of a sweatshop is mass production. It’s much more likely (well, it’s TRUE) that some of the US/European designers are running sweatshops fueled by overseas labor.

    Mostly, I just want people to think about how they’re judging other people — both the workers, and the people buying these dresses. I don’t care if you buy a designer dress. One of the top three “if I had the money” on my list is a Maggie Sottero: but realize that it’s not being lovingly handmade by Maggie herself and her best friends. And some of these Chinese workers are a lot more like indie seamstresses than you’d imagine.

    For that matter, realize that not everyone HAS the money and the ability to make the same choices. Independent dress designers are still expensive. People can make the choice to buy prom dresses or pale bridesmaid dresses if they want to save money and find it less objectionable than buying from overseas.

    Personally, I would prefer everything be made by someone I know personally. I’d love to get a cool indie-made dress. It’s just never going to be an option for me, not in the prices I’ve seen.

    I don’t want people to judge, here. I want people to be aware. Not everything is as it seems, all the time.

  45. First off, a rousing “amen” to Faye — I agree wholeheartedly.

    I think part of the problem also addressed above by a different poster (Meghan: “Although at gut instinct I agree with Ariel’s statement that stealing from Wal-Mart wouldn’t be as morally objectionable as stealing from a local record shop, the whole argument at hand comes down to two things for me.

    1. Popularity. As several people have pointed out, Vera Wang and Fancy Pony are in similar price brackets. The difference is popularity. Vera Wang is popular– she is “THE” wedding dress lady. Fancy Pony and Wai Ching are the OBB equivalent, but OBB is much smaller than the WIC. I don’t see the to copy/steal issue as one of indie vs. mainstream sellouts, but as one of unpopular vs. popular. When I frame it that way to myself, I don’t like the idea of artists being punished for being well-liked. “) is popularity.

    I have friends who work at corporately-owned places, and when things are stolen, that affects their bonuses and raises.

    I made a joke once about going to just steal some pumpkins since the store left them outside all season even when the store was closed, and the friend got very panic-y and said that sure, I could, and then their pay would suffer directly. I wouldn’t be stealing just from the company; I’d be stealing from my friend.

  46. I got my dress from Kambriel, and it was one of the best decisions I feel I made for our wedding. She does custom work, has lovely stock stuff, and the price was comparable to a “knock off” dress while being unique and super awesome. I think that a lot of these issues can be side stepped by finding dress alternatives, or finding and supporting local seamstresses. You can really get something wonderful that is made for you for a price that would make it unnecessary to resort to buying from some of these morally shady groups. In addition, there are a lot of really good resources here, and on the Tribe about how to find a dress maker :).

    Regarding stealing/not stealing I don’t have a lot to add that hasn’t already been stated. I will say that at the end of the day, the choice really came down to the sweat shop labor issue for me. Whether I was looking at actual designer dresses or knock off dresses, I couldn’t shake the mental image of very poor women sitting around sewing beads onto princess dresses for 16 hours a day.

  47. This is a very interesting debate, and one I’ve been totally exempt from, because it never occurred to me to do anything other than make my own dress. Not because of price, though it’s a nice bonus that it’s going to be cheaper, but because it wouldn’t be ME otherwise. But it’s very interesting to see what people who do have to make this decision are thinking.

    I make jewelry for what we euphemistically call a ‘living’, and very occasionally corsets. I would be displeased if someone ripped off one of my more unique design features, yes, but I am aware that it’s a possibility. And the less unique design features are so prevalent in so much stuff anyway that it can hardly even be called ripping off. Copying an exact design is a bit dodgy, but those of us who do this small-time have to create our own patterns anyway, and that, to me, is actually a lot harder than coming up with the initial inspiration. That’s me, though– I design in my sleep, and have way more ideas than I can ever actually bring into being. I cannot speak of the ethics of Chinese factories– I am poor enough that I almost never buy ANYTHING new, and even most of my shoes come from thrift stores, so I really haven’t had to think about that. But it’s cool to see what conclusions other conscientious people who are considering the issue have come up with. I’ll have a much more informed opinion this way if it ever does come up.

  48. I have an issue that is sort of a side-issue to the one here. I saw a dress made by an indie designer that I absolutely love – but I have always planned to make my own dress, and that designer is no longer working. I’m going to reproduce the look by getting mix & match patterns and change it up to make it work for me.

    When people ask where I got my dress, is it OK to say I made it myself, or do i have to say i was inspired by such and so a designer? I’m not trying to make it seem like I thought up the whole design myself, but I will have put a LOT of time and effort into making the dress, and will be proud of that too.

    What do you think?

  49. My strategy as a semi-poor person is to avoid want and irrational desire as much as possible. It’s like a diet, if you’re not a naturally skinny person, stay out of the cupcake store. Sure some girls can afford a $10,000 dress, and some girls can eat cake and steak all day and still be thin. Figure out which one you are, and deal with it accordingly.

    Honestly, there’s probably something good for you at the price you want if you do a little asking around and searching. Do the footwork to figure out an alternative rather than buying into a prepackaged strategy. Think about making your own dress, or trading services with someone. It’s the mental exercise portion of your fiscal diet.

    You don’t need to steal from Vera Wang or Wal Mart, you just need to stay the hell away from both of them.

  50. WOW! Great topic and yep, I agree with…most all of you. Let’s put it in a different light (because I’m more familiar with this marketing) – ever heard of “twinned cars”? It’s when two cars share the same basic model, but are sold under different brand names. example: Toyota Camry/Lexus ES350 or Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe (the list is dozens)

    Nice. Same car. Different price. Different warranties. Different depreciation values. Made in the same factory. YOU DECIDE what you want to buy.

    Now, if I want the latest, greatest NO BODY has it vehicle, I’m going to pay. Or, if I want a top design vehicle I pay dearly. Is it a BETTER car? sometimes…the sheet metal might be better, the screws a little tighter, the paint a higher quality – but if i’m not on a race track should I care? Maybe, if it’s what I’m into. If I don’t care what I’m seen in and my little Honda gets me to the store, then that’s what I have.

    Is an indie designer BETTER? only if you like her/his work and it fits your budget. Is Vera Wang too rich? I’m not sure what that means, but she makes mattresses now.

    Fashion has always been a crazy knock off world. You wait 2 years for the HOT now style to be ripped off and pay what we can afford.

    My personal issue, is the sweat shops in all countries, including US waters. If you want to try to stay green, maybe buy a dress off the rack b/c at least it’s already been made and it’s not new sweat? I struggle with this one on almost EVERYTHING I buy and it’s very hard to escape.

    Last point to ponder for me – many of us will never have a financial footprint as big as our wedding (except house and childbirth) so think about how you want this billion dollar industry to act. Buy what you can afford and feel good about!

    Then go hug your neighbor just because you can.

    (putting soap box away…Thanks!)

  51. This is SUCH an interesting discussion, and it’s really good to hear the intellectual debate around the issue and not just the massive slag-fest that might have emerged elsewhere!

    I agree with everybody who has said that it’s the desire that is at the core of the issue – people who really think that having a Vera Wang will MAKE their day.

    As someone living in a developing country, and working as a volunteer, it has been so refreshing to be planning my wedding from here, because the uber-consumption factor is simply not an issue. It has REALLY influenced my wedding planning process from Day 1, because every day I come face to face with people living hand to mouth and STILL finding something to share with their neighbours.

    As for the original question posted, I don’t think you need to have money to “do the right thing”. Our wedding is costing under $5000 USD, which I think is a heap of money but according to all other standards comes in as a “budget wedding”, AND it’s going to be carbon neutral and as ethical as possible. We have reduced where we can and purchased carbon credits to offset what we can’t.

    I’m still me on my wedding day, so I want that day to be as considered as any other aspect of my life. This includes ensuring as much as possible (I take the point of Meghan in Comment 39) that my choices won’t negatively impact on the lives of others, or the planet.

    And seriously, it is hard not to judge people who are prepared to spend $70K on a single day, with absolutely NO consideration of the consequences of their actions. I just can’t help it – so call me a judgemental bitch!

  52. In the fashion design world there are no copyright laws when it comes to garments (just brands/logos) so to mimic the design of your favorite Vera Wang or Wai-Ching dress has no legal reproductions/illegalities. That’s why you see so many “inspired” prom dresses or “Get Michelle Obama’s Inauguration dress!” With designer prices you are paying for high end fabric, quality construction, service and the brand.

    Just thought I would point that out.

  53. One more point about sourcing, which seemed to be part of the original dilemma: clothing sold in the US is supposed to list its country of origin on the label. Thus, if a consumer has qualms about abusive working conditions in China, all we need to do is look at the label of the clothing we’re considering and see where it’s made. Commissioning a dress in the US from a local seamstress or designer can give some assurance of the working conditions under which the dress was made, because of US labor laws. Still, there are cases of sweatshops being discovered in garment districts in the US. I suspect – though I don’t know for sure – that many high end designer gowns are made in China, a long with the knock-offs one can find on ebay. All this being said, I am embarrassed to say that I don’t know where my gown is from…

  54. Oh, just make your own darn dress! Even if you can’t sew, you probably have a friend or a relative or a friend or relative of a friend or relative who knows how to sew.

  55. One Barefoot Bride, in theory that is great advice, but many bridal boutiques rip out tags and will refuse to even tell a bride who the designer (let alone where it is made) is until AFTER she has paid for it. Totally illegal, but not enforced.

    I agree with Bird. Make your own or find someone locally that can.

  56. Jess- My seamstress is Kathleen Knopoff. She’s located in the Chicago area, but she’s used to working with out-of-towners.

  57. I’m coming into the game pretty late here, most of my thoughts have already been expressed beautifully above, but I would like to talk about my dress that I bought my wedding dress for $60 at a local thrift shop. I had originally planned to make my dress, and it may not be exactly what I had originally envisioned myself in, but I thought that it was important to tax the world as little as possible with my committment ceremony….and my fashion sense. The sixty dollar dress is gorgeous, lots of intricate, vintage looking embroidery and beadwork, a timeless flattering cut and a really bold neckline….what I’m trying to say here is that you CAN find that amazing dress through other means. Thrifting and bridal trade/rent/sharing communities are great and not just filled with outdatedf unimaginative dresses.
    I agree that it is your own decision, but please please PLEASE when you make that decision make sure it’s an informed decision. Know where and what you’re buying and take responsibility for it.

  58. To put a different spin on things, what about situations where you’re having a dress copied because the original dress doesn’t come in the right colour/fabric? Is that still wrong?

    I had a lot of trouble finding a dress I actually liked, and finally found a photo of a Jovani prom dress that was exactly what I was after. However, I had two problems – 1. I live in Australia, and I couldn’t find anywhere that stocked the dress, and 2. I really wanted it to be in a particular fabric.

    I ended up taking the photo to a couple of independent dress designers for their opinions, and both refused to copy it outright for the same reasons expressed above, even though the original dress wasn’t ‘designer’. Our compromise was to use the photo of the dress as a base and change a number of things – the colour and the fabric and a couple of other small details.

    So I guess my question is, what is a ‘copy’? Does it have to be an exact copy to be wrong? Is it still wrong if you change something in the design? Is it wrong if you’re not copying a ‘designer’ dress? Is it wrong if you’re copying the dress because you physically can’t get your hands on it (either because its not available in your area or because its an older style that has ceased production)?

    I think that there is no black and white answer, to be honest – the only thing you can do is inform yourself as best as you can and make the decision that is right for you.

  59. Personally I wouldn’t really give it a second thought, while I am against sweat shops, most of these “designer” dresses are made in equally poor conditions, and machined as well. So, if you’re gonna just buy a knockoff, go for it, it’s for one day, not that huge of a deal.

    Personally, I bought my hand made/designed wedding dress/corset from an indie designer in Australia, I would be far more likely to give an indie designer my money than a WIC infested powerhouse like Vera Wang, who could probably give two shits about your wedding dress.

    Plus, realistically if you buy the traditional wedding dress, you are really only going to wear it on one day, why spend that much money unless you have it?

  60. I’d have to say in these times of economic turmoil more people are going to lean towards the cheaper option of going overseas. For me I am going to buy my dress overseas from a wholesale place, I don’t know if they have ripped off designer dresses but I am buying the dress I want in the budget I have.
    I wouldn’t rip off an indie design though I would admit but I’m not about to pay someone who already has masses of money heaps of money for a dress that I am only going to wear once.

    Realistically though it is your day, if you have to have THAT dress but you don’t have a $10 000 budget just for your dress I say go the overseas option. If you have the money go for it. You’ll have the label and the specific super fabrics the designer uses, or you’ll get the dress you love that suits you in maybe a different fabric (no one will notice in the photos or on the day really).

    And I’ve babbled on a bit hopefully I’ve made some sense.

  61. I find this topic very interesting, and not just because I bought a Vera Wang dress. I went to a consignment shop that specializes in designer dresses. I tried a bunch on, and I loved this beautiful beaded silk organza Vera Wang. Even used, this dress was $1600, which I paid. I completely agree with an earlier poster that class privilege was at play, and I try to never forget that.
    Why am I OK with designer prices? I think it is very similar to the pharm industry. Yes drug companies have big advertising budgets, but they also have millions in research and development cost. I understand when I buy a brand, that I am buying a lifetime of work. That’s where brand recognition comes from. It means something that we all know who Vera Wang is. Continuing the drug metaphor, generics contain the same essential ingredients. Dresses not made by the original designer house are not subject to the same control process, and therefor are not the same. I would argue that construction of a dress matters greatly, and that can be difficult to see from a photo.
    On a more selfish level, I worry about “knockoffs” watering down the original. I don’t want to look at the label of my dress and wonder “is this really a Vera Wang?” It shouldn’t matter, but to me it does.
    I think it is great that I am the third bride to wear this dress. I feel like I cheated the WIC, while still honoring the artist. I have an original dress, I just acquired it in an offbeat way.

  62. I honestly don’t think a woman spending $200 on a knockoff is taking money out of a designers pocket, no matter which way you slice it. A person finding a knockoff dress for a steal is a person not willing to spend $5000+ on a dress anyway. If the knockoff were not available, would that bride say “I guess I have to spend the 5k!” no, she wouldn’t. She’d just find a different dress that fits her budget and hopefully still fits her vision. You see it happen on boards all over the place, not just the OBT.

    And the point at which it becomes okay to knockoff someone’s work is when they begin price gouging based on their name. It ceases to be about getting your wares, designs, and ideas to the world, and becomes completely totally about the wedding industrial complex.

    Do you think Vera’d be selling her dresses for that kind of price if she was on etsy? It’s the same phenomenon as the price for a fancy birthday cake, vs the price for a wedding cake.

  63. In addition to bing a psychotherapist I am a textile artist. I spin my own yarn, weave my fabric and produce the final object/garment from my fabric and my designs. When I send a piece of my art out into the world – be it a show, a museum or a customer – that design becomes party of the world. Other artist and craftspersons can use it for inspiration, people can knock it off – that they would want to only flatters me. Creation and design does not belong to an individual but to the society in which it was inspired. In turn becomes a source of inspiration for what comes later. By all means modify my designs, steal my designs, use them to create your own designs.

  64. So, I totally get the whole “stealing is wrong there is no such thing as black and white” thing… shoot, I was raised in Judea-Christian America too. But I do not concede that a “rip-off” wedding dress is wrong.

    First of all, like many other posters, I’m hesitant to call it “stealing,” per say. After all, many of these offshore dresses are designed specifically to your measurements, and so they will like inherently different, because they’re made to fit a specific person.

    Secondly, aren’t most of the complaints you (or anyone who does any research on the Chinese, etc. dress manufacturers) will read about knock-offs involve bitching about how the dress isn’t exactly the same as the picture. Most of the companies being discussed (Kaersan, Perimart, Milly’s Bridal) state that they are making dresses based on photos of gowns, and that as such they are not (and can not) be totally identical.

    I think it’s a little ridiculous to assume Maggie Sottero (or whoever) invented the sparkly princess a-line dress with one sleeve, because seriously? He/she/they did not. The bulk of differences between big name Western designers is not so much. They all copy each other anyway… That’s what a TREND is.

    Personally? I’d much rather directly support a Chinese seamstress via her own Ebay store than via Miss Vera Wang.

  65. In my business of fashion class is pointed out to us that there is no such thing as copyright in fashion. Once you’re design is out there you really can’t keep anyone from copying it. It’s simply not considered the designers in the same way a song is a musicians or a painting is the painters.
    Look at F21. They are ALWAYS copying high end and only once did they get in trouble because the directly 100% copied DVF. Change a button here and a hemline there it’s not considered the same design.

  66. Although I am not condoning sweatshops, people in China need jobs too. I need a traditional Chinese wedding dress for my wedding and they are most always made in China. Probably a lot of the fabric including silks used by indie designers originally came from China. The US imports the highest % of our foreign goods from China. Whether we like it or not we live in a global economy.

  67. @Sarah H (“and maybe I should have used a different company like Costco that isn’t as contentious”): I just love the mental image of someone trying to steal an economy-size tub of Vaseline or jumbo bag of Sour Patch kids from Costco. I say if anyone can pull something like that off, they’re entitled to keep whatever they’ve nicked. 😉

    My boyfriend was reading this post over my shoulder and said something pretty apt (in that adorable lethargic Californian way): “If she has a 4-inch p—-, it doesn’t matter if you have a 10-inch c—.” (And he never uses that language which made it even better in that ‘you had to be there’ kind of way.) If you’re on a tight budget, there’s little chance you’re going to be able to fit a $5k wedding dress into the equation. Unless that’s something you absolutely want to fight for–and if that’s the case, more power to you. But if you’re making budget cuts to afford your dress to the point where your reception is in the cafe at your local IKEA, it’s going to fit about as well as the 4″/10″ scenario.

    When my mother got re-married (and re-married again), she put most of her money into getting her whole family in on the party (we have a huge extended Syrian fam). So she used dress styles she admired from magazines/catalogs to create patterns and sew her bridesmaid/flower girl dresses using fabrics she picked out, modifying them to fit our different body shapes and sizes. Could the Storybook catalog have used the $500 she would have spent on clothing my aunt, me, and my sisters? Meh. Was it worth more getting to see all of our family in one nice and comfortable hotel? Totally.

    What’s best is, she got her ideal dresses and didn’t have to outsource to China. I bet if you have misgivings about getting a factory knockoff, you could find a friend, family member, or design school student who could work out your dress for you for a fraction of the cost or a couple of dinners. That to me sounds like a perfect fit.

  68. Having money does indeed give you the luxury to care about these things. Many women do not have the thousands of dollars that most designer wedding dresses cost. I, for example, had no more than a couple hundred dollars to spend (and even that is a lot for me). Does that mean that I don’t get to have a wedding dress I love? Does that mean I have to shop at thrift stores or get a revamped prom dress? I’m sorry, but that’s not fair. If I can get a dress that looks similar to a designer dress for less, than I’m going to get that.

    It really kind of makes me upset that the original questioner feels that people just aren’t thinking about these kinds of things. Of course we are. Of course I did. But I’m poor. I want a beautiful wedding dress too.

  69. I agree that going overseas for a knockoff isn’t exactly the equivalent of steal from your local grocery. I agree that if you couldn’t afford that higher price, you’re not taking business away from a designer. Heck, if anything, more people wearing that design will only serve to send more people with money and who want to pay for a name their way.

    Also, I’d like to add something about “Made in the USA.” Yes, if you’re going to a local who will make it, that’s one thing. Not all things with that label are actually made here. There are factories in American Samoa, the Marshall Islands, and Free Trade Zones across the world who can legally manufacture apparel that says “Made in the USA.” The first two are US territories, but have recently have BEGUN taking steps with labor laws. As for Free Trade Zones, that’s what you get when the World and/or the Inter-American Development Bank reams small nations. For more information: http://www.lifeanddebt.org/about.html

  70. How many children could you feed in a third world country with the $5K you are spending on a wedding dress?

    As an artist, I have respect for intellectual property. However, I think there are designers that abuse it. I challenge anyone to send me a so called original design and I will find you the dress that inspired it.

    People lose touch with reality. Perfect example: Amsale, who came to the U.S. from Ethiopia and “couldn’t afford designer clothes, so I started making my own”.
    Now she not only makes dresses that people like herself (at one time) could never afford, but disregards the fact that the average cost of one of her gowns could feed 1 meal to 50,000 people in her native country (https://give.ccci.org/give/View/2816447_1132)

    If you want to reproduce a design, change it ever so slightly and you’ll be doing what every other bridal designer does. Just have it made here instead of in a sweat shop!

    You ought to question how ethical it is for you to frivilously spend that much on clothing when so many people don’t have a roof over their heads and don’t know where to find their next meal. Is that “doing the right thing”?

  71. Lots of thoughts and lots of opinions- all wonderfully expressed. I LOVE the discussions on this site, they are always so respectful and well thought out. 🙂

    My priority in this debate is moral issues hands down. The wedding dress industry is wrought with human right issues and I can’T justify buying a dress for my day of love that has such a horrible, abusive history. It feels weird.

    Good news for Canadian Brides: there ARE boutiques that carry Canadian made dresses for under a zillion dollars- Lee-Ann Belter is one. 🙂

  72. There is another option besides buying original, ordering a knock-off, or having a dress made… and that is buying a dress (new or used) from a consignment shop. I looked at one shop in my local area that had hundreds of new or “once worn” (their words) wedding dresses from various designers. Most of their selection was pretty traditional (read: fitted bodice, A-line skirt, chapel length train) so I didn’t up getting my dress there. But I think its a wonderful option for someone that wants: (1) a more traditional dress possibly designer, (2) something more budget conscious, and/or (3) an opportunity to support a small local business.

  73. This topic caught my eye, as I am a indie designer, and although I am not a fan of the big generic bridal shops( for so many reasons…same ol’ frocks, snotty sales staff, nothing over a size 8…..) I do however understand why things cost so much for weddings…and I know many of you out there thing that you say the word wedding,and think folk see pound signs and charge accordingly.

    In the majority of cases, I really don’t think this is so. …(god, there are so many issues posted and well covered in this thread, I’m trying to not babble on too much….)

    The copy / theft one I will start with; as a small designer I make a very limited amount of dresses each year, this is my full time occupation, I work 6 days a week, aprox 10 hour days. I work hard. On my own I can only make a limited amount of dresses, 12-20 depending on style. I choose to used the best fabrics I can, and give the best service I can. Each dress is fitted 3-5 times in person, by me, I do all the designing, cutting, fitting, sewing. But beyond all this I have to run it as a business, so the dresses final cost, is not just the cost of the fabrics you see on the out side, but also the internals, and everything that makes the business run, in this very comparative market. I have a unit to work from, various sewing machines, irons, eyelet machines, of course computer, printer, camera…and millions of other thing you would not even conceder. …So my designs can be found, each new design need s to be modelled, photographed, hair, make up, ( most of this I do myself, to save costs, but not every one can do this) then they need to be advertised, via magazines, the internet….getting top on goggle is not free and is hard work! Then all the other ad min bill, like tax VAT, accountants fees….tea bags and toilet rolls for when client some to view the collection, which has to be made, so you guys can see it in person…the hundreds of fabric samples keep for viewing and the dozens bought in to show you different shades etc…. Are you still with me???
    This hasn’t not even started how many years I spent training to learn my craft…..and continue to do so to keep up with new technology…

    Right, so after all this I charge, £2500-£4500+ for my dresses. yes, I know a massive amount, but this does not mean I am over charging, or sitting in mansion. if I got a proper job, I could work less, and earn more, I know this. I am not bad at business, even when working at full wack, there is a top limit to what I can make, I have to trusted employees who work one day a week. I love what I do, and would rather earn less and continue as I am , a small business. I would never considering going into manufacture, as the whole point of what is do is to make stunning, well made, well fitted, flattering garments, that really show their wearers personality. I don’t believe this can be mass produced. But I appreciate this is not always an affordable option

    I also realise that as I am limited to making such a small amount, things will be copied, its inevitable, and flattering,as if 100 people wanted the same dress in one year, I could not do it, also can I cover a international market, as all fitting need to be done I person, eliminating anyone who does not live in the UK. And with the way the internet works, my advertising covers the whole world, which I still find amazing! To get enough customers in the uk, I have to cover the whole web.

    The point I think, I am trying so lengthily to make is, I know not every one has a massive budget, and am the first to say, buy what you can afford!, don’t go broke for a frock. But it is still offensive to me when people think that they are expensive wedding dresses are over priced, because even Wang, will have massive over hear to run her business, and by having the gowns mass produced she is giving hundreds if not thousands of people jobs. She may not hand stitch them, but her staff, if not her would have designed them ( personally I’m not a Wang fan, not my taste, just using her as an example) There is a lot that goes in to designing,( well anything really) shape and proportion, details etc…that takes an expert eye to do, and the research in to buying and finding the right fabrics etc…Once its out there,as a dress its quiet easy to copy it, as all the leg work has been done.

    When I started the business, I went round bridal shows, the wholesale kind, and saw the cost of the dresses to buy, the mark up is 3-5 times the cost, more than the usual shop mark up, this may sound shocking, but I now realise why…..

    If a dress is bought by a shop, for say £150, then sold for say £800, that £650 does not go straight in to the pockets of the shop owner, in the same way you can cook a meal for a less than a pound, or pay £50+ in a fancy restaurant. There is a reason for this, not just the food costs, but everything from the chair you sat on, the waiting staff, the lights above you, the public insurance to cover them and you…..shall I go on…..
    The cost of something is never what you just see in front of you….there is so much more…..Especially in weddings, when people want it just so, and want to be able to speck to their vendors at any given moment. Most vendors are happy to do this, as its make for a good service, the client getting what they want, a wedding can and generally is more special, and more time consuming than a day to day event, food or flowers, yes you can get a bunch of flowers for less than bouquet, but do you wan to carry a shop bought bunch of daffodils…( I might!) but most folk want a perfectly proportioned, placed bouquet, which take more time to make, and more time with the client to discuss, sample and source. Time costs money, we all have bills to pay.

    And that is my point. I hate generic bridal shops as much as the next indie bride, but do I think they over charge, no. The dresses may be relatively, or even in the case of the expensive designer shops, the time spent with wedding customers is much more than a normal shop. A potential bride may visit 3-4 time to try on a dress, but never buy it, all these thing have to be costed in to the running of a business.
    It is the time spent that can make things cost so much, for example, the wedding shop, high or low end, or indie,..There is a shop, which is filled with dresses, and staff to help people try them on, these dresses, in most cases(apart from sample sales) are ‘hangin up money’ as they cant be sold, as they will be worn out and ruined after a few months, as they will have been tried on..and on…This is necessary, but will not guarantee the shop a sale. In many cases people will go and try the dress on to see if it looks good, then go buy it from the internet cheaper. Although this is quiet excepted, is it fair on the shop? The reason the internet shop re cheaper, is because they do not have these over heads. But is does benifit from the shops who people freely use to try on what they will knowing not be buying from there. This is not to say you must buy from every where you try! So it is great for the customers, great for the net shop, but the looser is the shop. Who have basically been used.

    At the end of the day, you have to make your own decisions based on what you think is right for you, at the time, and what you can afford. If you love designer /indie or other wise, and can afford and appreciate what they are and why they cost so much, you will save up and get them, If you cant afford it, there no reason why you shouldn’t do what you can to get the look you want on the budget you have, by takign ideas from other designers just please appreciate why they cost that much more. I think this is what is most designers gripe, its not the coping, as yes, all fashion is copied and filtered down to all price brackets, its the thought behind it. The same thought that makes a person think whether they want sweat shop or non sweat shop..and as a sewer, I recon its all sweat shop…just in different places, with different fabrics, and different wages, weather in a home basement or massive factory.

    One last thing, on the money front, I know some folk think it is crazy waste of money to spend more than £$100 on a dress for one day( although many designs can be worn and worn these days if you don’t opt a long white frock…) but who has the right to say if your rich, you must live humbly, and give your money to the poor? That’s as bad as saying someone who is poor should work harder, get a better job, so they can do the same. People come form all circumstance, and financial positions, some are born into it, some are given it, some work hard, some are just plain lucky. But know one has the right to say what each person should do with it. No more than we should say if a person deserves to have cancer or not. Be true to your believes, as long as they harm no other. That I think is the best we can do.

  74. Oh crap, I forgot one more thing in regards to buying second hand, this is fab, you can find unusual things, vintage things, its re using, less waste, all good, and generally cheaper, but don’t forget, there is a chain, if there was no one buying the stuff, then giving it/selling it on, there would be no second hand to buy from, just a thought….

  75. Even when making your own dress it can be pretty tough to avoid sweat shop labour. Although your designer and dressmaker may be local, where was the fabric made? Where was the cotton or linen grown and spun? The silk cocoons unwound? That doesn’t mean it’s not worth attending to, just that it’s going to be tough to be “pure green and fair trade.”

  76. I used to be a model for wedding dresses, I sympathise with Jan above. It was easy for me just to show up, be dressed up, and spend 9+ hours per shoot standing there looking blank and getting paid very, very well for it, besides the hairdresser fees and the makeup artist fees and the photographer, and the revenue the designer lost hovering around and pinning this and accentuating that. I tried to fathom the cost per design to ensure this was worth it and ever afterwards defended any designer charging that much. 🙂

    I just want to say, though, that it’s not just your desire. Some of the people invited to the wedding are business acquaintances and it’s nice to be impressive, but beyond that it’s also what your fiance and both of your families want. Wearing an indie dress wouldn’t be very smart of me; I might get applauded for my creativity but it might also come across as a sign that my businesses are doing poor economically, so other companies should sign contracts with me/purchase my businesses/allow me to partner why? (I get the challenge of trying to be offbeat under everyone’s noses to amuse my fiance and I). I look very young, and labels are important to me so I can approach the older female entrepreneurial crowd. As well, there was that fuss recently about how women tend to hire friends and family who need a job, and that’s the largest reason that female-owned businesses do poorly. I realise this doesn’t affect that many, but I feel compelled to defend a choice that has less to do with desire and more to do with logic, when we’ve just defended label choice by saying it’s motivated by desire. Sometimes a wedding is just as much a professional event as a personal one! (TL;DR: Labels sometimes help cement a woman’s professionalism.)

    I love everyone’s comments, though – very good debate! By the way, Helen, if you go to the manufacturer directly it’s much easier to determine their “greenness” even though I find, particularly so in the western States, that many vendors use “green” to sell because perhaps one feature of their production line is more green than, say, McDonald’s. Besides, there are local fabrics in many places that you can purchase or, if you’re lucky, you may have friends who travel for business or pleasure and might know which places to get decent local fabrics in. It’s more work, certainly, but if it’s so important to be green, then the work makes sense. Finding an ethical designer and dressmaker is relatively easy; finding the fabric is much more difficult.

    I agree about the human-rights violations, though. We know they exist and we promote the culture that causes it to exist. (Does ANYONE disagree?)

    And by the way, the note about justifying spending that much money on a dress is the same as spending that much money on, say, a boat, or a trip to Japan: the short answer is, because someone desires it. Really. They may have dreamt about spending a romantic weekend in Paris since they were six, or imagined their wedding dress since the time they saw a re-enactment of Princess Di’s wedding on television. (Curiously and getting way off-topic, I’ve heard it put thusly: if you spend that much on a wedding dress and a fortune on the wedding, then close a deal for six million dollars, and ten percent of your personal earnings goes to feed people… moral justification for a lush lifestyle is hilarious to listen to.)

    Wonderful debate!

  77. It is dangerous to make sweeping generalizations about China, sweatshops, workers and their “ethical” needs. On the one hand, high-quality luxury apparel tends to be produced in factories that are not sweatshops, or at least not the worst working environment out there. High quality, fashion-oriented goods are also more likely to be produced closer to the market where they are sold, although China and other Asian countries have achieved major successes in high quality production in some instances. Also, it is often true that typically brand name companies/designers have better compliance and standards than no-name brands or knock-offs. On the other hand, wedding gown brands are not as visible or commonly critiqued as, say, your Gaps and Nikes. Therefore, who’s to say that the high-end designers necessarily care about working conditions more than the knock-off brands (which are also luxury compared to a t-shirt)? It would be an interesting research project to follow the supply chains of different wedding gowns to find out the actual geography, conditions of the work, living conditions and life situations of the workers (who are women 80%+ of the time). One final comment: if we just accept that “sweatshops” are a necessary reality, that is a sad, sad reflection on how far this ethical trade debate has come.

  78. I think we accept generally that most of our affordable products come from workers somewhere down the line who were not fairly paid, at least compared to the livable wage of North America and Europe. That being said, most of us live busy lifestyles and work within our budgets for both time and money to live as ethically as possible. For some, this means shopping and eating at fair-trade shops and restaurants, or perhaps being vegan or vegetarian to reduce the pressure on the animal production and slaughter system.

    Also, I agree with Ann about the high quality production comment, not much fuss is made in the US over the Hong Kong fashion industry, which is absolutely breathtaking. I find China even to be expensive (my friends translate for me so as to prevent me getting ripped off) since much of my high quality scarves and nightwear comes from there. It seems a bit ignorant to just assume cheap production = Asian countries.

    (Psst: one edit for my post – if you close a deal because of the wedding celebration -> that’s what I meant. It’s quite hypocritical, though, with the previous statement about mixing family and employees, but a lot of elderly independent businessmen see this as a traditional way of doing business.)

  79. I’m not sure if anyone else brought this up, but once any designer publicly shows a collection, rip-offs IMMEDIATELY show up in Forever21 or Target — it’s part of the fashion industry, always has been. What you’re paying for with a big-name designer dress is the quality of materials, the handcrafting, and, essentially, bragging rights.

    I see nothing wrong with ripping off a big-name designer dress. The whole fashion industry is used to it, and you’re not making a profit like the chain stores are — you’re just enjoying the product.

    As far as the ethics of overseas labor, I have no ability to comment… I’m pretty sure half my clothes were made in China, Indonesia, or Taiwan, just like the rest of America.

  80. One thing to consider: If you want any type of clothing, bridal or otherwise “cheap”, you will be paying the person who will be creating the garment “sub-living wages”, regardless if the seamstress is local or overseas. I am a seamstress who works in a fabric store (I primarily do costumes), and have been approached frequently by customers asking me how much I would charge to make something. When I give them a rough figure- (which is frequently a gross underestimate of what I SHOULD be getting paid) they are usually completely shocked as to why I am asking for so much! Any garment involves time + material cost. I don’t have any experience making wedding gowns yet (will be making my own at some point)- I primarily make movie recreation costumes, which can be just as elaborate and detail-oriented. But let’s estimate that the average wedding gown takes approximately 100 hours to make (if there’s hand beading or embroidery involved, tack on another 50-100 hours, depending on how elaborate.) All those hours isn’t just from making the actual dress, but involve fitting and tailoring the dress so it will fit properly, which takes a lot of work. If I charge minimum wage (which is $8 here in California, which is greatly cheapening my work, as sewing is skilled labor which I have spent a number of years trying to perfect- I can make just as much if not more working at McDonald’s which takes no skill.) So you’re looking at $800 from just labor costs alone. Now we need to factor in the materials. Bridal fabric is typically anywhere from $10 on up. I work in a fabric store and know how to get good deals (plus, an employee discount helps as well) so I can get fabric for significantly less then suggested retail. Your typical bridal gown is approximately 8 yards of fabric. Let’s aim cheap, and say we are doing a simple dress with not a lot of embellishments out of a nice silk taffeta, which I can get for about $12/yard (let’s not even talk if you want bridal lace- which can be from $24-$60+/yard) 12 x 8 = $96. Now you have to take into consideration all the notions that go into the dress: lining, interfacing, thread, buttons, zippers, hook and eye, boning, ribbon… it all adds up. So you’re looking at a very basic custom dress costing over $1000. We’re in an age where we’ve come to expect items for next to nothing, which is why I seldom do commission work: because people expect homemade custom work for “off the rack” prices. So remember, even if your local seamstress is willing to make your wedding dress for $300, understand that she is likely making grossly underpaid for her hard work just the same as if you were to get a dress from China.

  81. Just wanted to say that if the film “Real Women Have Curves” (starring America Ferrera – I love her!) is any indication, even dresses made in the U.S. can be (and probably are) made with sweat-shop labor, or at least people who are very underpaid.

    In the film, the aunt of the main character (main character = America) runs a dress shop where they piece and finish prom dresses to be sold in big department stores. They are paid about $15 for each dress, which is resold in the department stores for about $200, and have to eat the costs of any dress they manage to “ruin,” (i.e. crease or burn when pressing, etc.).

    I personally am hoping to go with a local seamstress or a friend of mine who is really good at sewing.

    As for offshore? You’re probably paying those seamstresses in China and India much more than they would be getting paid if they made clothes for big American companies.

    I do agree with the consignment shop comment, though. Other options? Ebay, Etsy, local thrift and vintage stores, etc! Or, god forbid, make it yourself!

  82. Lisa is absolutely right.

    I design and make most of my own clothing and get compliments all the time, but I don’t do it to sell because I doubt I could sell day dresses for what it would cost me in materials and labor. If I paid myself $10 an hour–which is not a living wage–for both the time spent designing, fine-tuning my improvisations (every dress is unique), and sewing, plus materials (quality cotton prints but nothing extravagant), I’d have to charge about $200 for a simple day dress. I think I’d be very hard-pressed to get that when there are so many cool vintage dresses available on Etsy, eBay, and through thrift stores, much more cheaply. I don’t have any other employees to support or a workspace to rent, either! If I were doing this professionally, I’d have to streamline my designing and sewing process considerably, which would sacrifice creativity and uniqueness. Everything has a trade-off.

    So, just because and independent designer is expensive doesn’t mean s/he is overpriced. I could easily see a wedding dress, even by a small local designer/seamstress, running a couple of thousand dollars. It’s not price-gouging; it’s fair pay for her work.

  83. An art dealer might tell you that an original Jackson Pollock holds a hefty price tag, and someone else might look at it and say, “He only spent a couple bucks on a few cans of paint and drizzled it on some canvas. My 5-year-old can do that, and you want me to pay WHAT for this?!??” What determines the painting’s value in not the cost of the materials or how or where it was made; it is the supply and demand factor.

    You can have a pair of jeans made in a sweat shop in China for 2 fickin’ bucks (which is how much it costs to manufacture a pair of Calvin Klein jeans), and if the demand is high, the price will be high. If no one wants them, they’ll be cheap.

    In any event, if you don’t want to support Vera Wang or whomever – for whatever reason – then why so keen to have a dress that looks just like hers? I think the mentality involved in purchasing knock-offs is really rooted in wanting that which we cannot realistically have. If you can’t afford a Vera Wang, then what’s the harm in purchasing a beautiful dress (designed by someone else) that is in your price range? There are plenty of “no-name” dress designers who make fantastic gowns, and no one is going to be looking at the tag on your dress at your wedding.

    I can’t resist commenting on those who have posted that knock-offs are not illegal. As a legal professional, I somewhat disagree. U.S. Customs actually looks specifically for (and confiscates) designer knock-offs when these items come through Customs. One clarification, however: EXACT replicas are illegal. Designer “inspired” items are not.

  84. Okay- I really have something to say about this!!!! I am a designer and owner of a company that has made dresses for a number of Offbeat Brides. In an effort to respect this site I am not going to “Pimp My Business Name”.

    Gals- just because you give a seamstress a picture of a dress torn from a magazine does not mean that is the dress you are going to get from your “copyist! You will get a version of that dress. It could be indiscernible- if you are INCREDIBLY lucky. But I will tell you- even in Hollywood, when they have the most expert craftspeople in the world and unlimited budgets as tools for achieving authenticity, they sometimes can’t really copy 10% or make bad mistakes.

    What you are going to get is a version of what you are asking for- you will NEVER get an exact copy. You are gambling. You are gambling that you will pay less and get close enough to what you want to be pleasing to you. You are taking a very big risk (and if you get what you want, I think you “deserve” it for being so resourceful!)

    You have no idea how many judgment calls will be made during the course of “interpreting” your request, not to mention the corners that might be cut.

    Let’s also think about what the very meaning of the word “fashion” carries with it. It’s a creation of culture and of the time- it doesn’t “belong” to one designer. The people who made mini skirts after Mary Quant “invented” the mini skirt were not copying her. Mary Quant ingeniously plucked an idea from the winds of the times.

    I make “vintage reproductions”. They are all my version of something where I have taken inspiration from certain details and then I have done it in my own way. So do at least half of the current haute couture designers out there today- vintage elements are very big now.

    Even though my company has our own distinctive look, some one can- and they do- try to “knock us off”. It is better as a designer to simply be flattered by that, keep coming up with “new” ideas, and do what you do the best you possibly can, because it’s about so many small issues of quality and so many small judgment calls that 1) no one can ever completely copy you and 2)if you are, on balance, giving value to customers with what you do and creating something people want, you will likely have a market. Worry, as a designer, about doing *your* best at what you do, not what others are doing.

    The last thing I’d like to say on this subject is that a beautiful dress design virtually always evolves i the design studio. It isn’t born in one fell swoop- at least not very often. The first time you make it, you learn something and you revise it. If you as a consumer are simply trying to get a distant shop to copy something, they will not be able to afford to make it over a few times and work the bugs out of it before they make your dress. The prototype is so rarely perfect. If the seamstress/ shop is local and you know how to determine why something doesn’t look right, at least you can make the seamstress change it a bunch of times to work out all the kinks if s/he is making something for you from a picture or or a sketch. Even commercial patterns (Vogue, Butterick)never turn out like the picture on the front- they always need to be tweaked. So if you go to someone who has already made that particular style instead of going to someone who is copying the style, your chances of getting it the way you want are increased dramatically.

    And there you have my $.02

    Katherine

  85. Regarding “Cheap Offshore”. “probably made in a sweatshop… by child labor…”

    I have a small business- you may have seen my last post. I am an American alternative artsy type who worked in the US (“Made in The USA”- how PC- not really) for a long time, most recently in Hollywood for ten years, before I came to my dream place, Bali eight years ago, and created my dream job making dresses I love that nice (yay!) people can afford to buy, in an orchid-draped garden studio, where I know there will be no bad vibes for me to contend with at work because I treat the people who work with me really well and in return they treat me really well. I contrast that with some of the Hollywood producers I had to work for or some of the screaming abusers in New York that I had to work for when I worked on 7th Ave in the fashion industry there. (Not all of them were like that,of course, but all too many of them. Traumatic!!! Shudder!!!)

    I came here because I could do what I love with nice people (working along side me) for nice people (as customers). If I was still working in Hollywood, no way could the same people who can afford my clothes today be able to buy from me.

    Not all enterprises in third world countries are “places where an ethical person wouldn’t want their money going”! Golly, you can really FEEL GREAT about yourself when you fund certain undertakings in third world countries. Some of those third world workers are SUPER NICE, TALENTED, DESERVING PEOPLE. Some of those purported “sweat shops” might actually be pretty places with fresh air and an affable atmosphere with short working hours where people are making conversation with their friends while doing a craft they enjoy. There may be some horrible fat cat skimming off every grain of profit, but there may not be! There could be a horrible abusive exploiter fat cat running a US business, too! (Trust me!)

    Are we going to be all protectionist and try to save every nickle to only spend in the US? There’s a great way to encourage world poverty.

    I think we have to try to use our heads and pick and choose. I really believe in voting with your dollars. I think that is a very effective way of doing good in the world. Refuse to to business with ugly corporations, even when that is inconvenient for you.

    Let people from other countries make products for you- geez. Don’t go around saying every product you buy has to be from the US and then claim to be a supporter of ending world hunger. We need to share. Let’s keep the jobs in the U.S. that we do best- let’s specialize in what we do best and let our world neighbors contribute -and earn- as well.

    Let’s use our heads and evaluate on an ongoing basis with an open mind and evaluate on an individual basis when we can. Let’s try not to lump “all third world workers” or “all imports” any more than you would lump “all Muslims” or “all men” or whatever.

    Pardon my preaching 🙂 Katherine

  86. I’m with you on the support for indie designers, but I don’t think there’s a point where it’s morally ok to rip something off just because the person who made it won’t miss the money. By that logic, embezzlement is totally fine as long as you pick a rich target! Let’s support small artists by buying their goods, not by stealing from successful ones!

  87. Unfortunately, it is naive to think that only big-name designers get ripped off, not “indie” designers. I think trying to make such a distinction is ethically unsound, anyway, and is really just rationalization.

    Take Amy Kuschel as an example. She is an independent bridal designer in San Francisco. Does indie mean cheap? No — her dresses range from about $1500 to more than $3000. But as an “indie” designer, is she exempt from imitation? Follow this link to find out: http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=amy+kuschel+wedding+dress&revid=1340892441&ei=8sHPSfHqDoznnQe91s3MCQ&resnum=0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=ecLPSdTNGIqMtgfMlo3eCQ&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title

  88. This discussion is amazing, I love reading everyone’s opinions… and GREAT ideas!

    Can I just throw something out there? Vera Wang offers some patterns through Simplicity. So technically, if you got a seamstress to create the dress from that pattern, you wouldn’t have to steal from her at all, she’d get your $18. I know, it’s a little besides the point, but if there are any Vera lovers out there who can’t afford it, this combines the best of both worlds.

    There are a lot of great ideas in combining the two extremes here, too, and I so loved reading everyone’s post that I could (I admit, I stopped somewhere around 70… eyes getting tired!) There’s never going to be a “one size fits all” answer, but I think the closest is one many people are saying: it is whatever you are morally comfortable with, IMO.

  89. A few people have already brought this up, but we have workers that are exploited right here in the US, and workers that are treated extremely well in so-called 3rd world countries. In fact, in some of those countries, places we consider sweat-shops are considered a big step UP for the workers in that part of the world. While here in the US, I know of people who are NOT paid overtime, because of a loophole in the laws.

    We should be conscious of how we spend our dollars, whether we spend them on “Made in the USA” or “Made in China,” on a designer original or a knock-off, from a resale shop or brand-new. We can do this at every economic level.

  90. I think it all comes down to basic economics and good business. Make a good product for a good price and people will buy it. Make a good product at an unreasonable price and people will go elsewhere to pay a cheaper price. It’s really that simple. Everyone who had ever done business knows that if you produce the same product as your competitor but your price is lower, you’ll win the buyers. In the case of fashion, there are no US laws that protect the designs – so legally it is perfectly acceptable to replicate a design, as far as I understand it. In my particular case, I designed my own dress then found “my” design was already made by a dress company. So in theory, I’m not really copying their dress, yet they will look the same. The thing about design is, if its good, everyone will copy it in one way or another. It’s part of the business. I myself am a designer and although I hope that people will purchase my designs, I realize that theh bottom line will always be money and quality. And on one last tangent, I find that most “wedding” dress shops increase the markup on wedding gowns just because of the word attachment. As an educated consumer, I refuse to pay an additional markup just because someone thinks they can take advantage of me based on emotions. It is a constantly changing balance between what the dresses are worth in time/materials and what consumers are willing to pay.

  91. When I was in Cambodia I met some women who worked in sweatshops. They were extremely grateful for these jobs. One of the women told me about how her son starved to death some years ago because she didn’t have enough money to feed him. She works for a tiny amount of money and in terrible conditions, but she’s happy because she can feed her young daughter and she can afford a tiny apartment so she no longer has to live at the dump. Without the sweat shops, or as they call them, garment factories, they would have none of that. I’m not saying I agree with the way they treat their workers (don’t even get me started on how this woman lived in poverty so the company could have more money), but I think they are helping the impoverished people they employ.
    Sorry if my thoughts are a bit jumbled, I’ve been up for a while.

  92. in regards to the ethics of having something made in china

    we may consider their factories to be sweatshops but they consider them to be a living.

    factories are closing down at a very fast rate (30-50% in some areas) and their young workers area grateful for any work that they can get. china doesn’t seem to have much in the way of welfare

    i would say that it is un-ethical to boycott a countries goods on these grounds

  93. My solution to this was to get a seamstress. I just met with mine today for the second time to look at fabrics. THere are lots of talented people out there who sew for a living, and the results are much more affordable than designer gowns.

    So I went to the local (and locally owned) fabric store and asked for a recommendation, talked to two women, and picked one. She picked up a pencil at our first meeting and basically drew the dress I wanted that I could not find anywhere.

    What I’ve learned so far is that if you want a dressmaker that will design something for you, you will pay more, around $500-$1400 where I live. If you’re just looking for someone to work from a pattern the cost can be much lower. Either way, the cost is still less than most designer gowns and you don’t have to pay for alterations.

    Today I picked the fabrics for the gown with her and my mother. That’s another possible way to cut costs or to know you’re getting the very best French lace.
    Since I wanted something specific that I couldn’t find anywhere, this was the right choice for me.
    I haven’t seen the finished product yet, but it’s incredible to basically be able to ask for whatever I want, instead of being told what I should want.

    So basically, I strongly recommend checking out the seamstress option!

  94. Honestly, this debate is killing me. I thought I’d be able to get around the made-in-Taiwan-by-underpaid-workers-and-then-sold-by-nasty-stores-for-too-much-money issue by buying a lovely vintage dress. I like the vintage dress styles and my ring is also vintage, so it seemed like a perfect fit. I’m even petite, so I thought fit should not be such a problem. Unfortunately, when you don’t live in an urban area, most of the vintage shopping you can do is over the internet. And how comfortable is anyone buying such a special item without trying it on first? On top of that, my fiancé doesn’t like lace or pouf. Sometimes it seems like he doesn’t like anything vintage. So I start looking at the J Crew dresses on ebay, and then look up information about their manufacturing practices, and I still feel yucky. Why does this have to be so hard? (Sigh) I’ve got the wedding dress shopping blues.

  95. I have one objection to this complicated thread. I will state it short and sweetly.

    Ethics is determined by the action itself and not the cause. Steeling from a morally corrupt bussiness if a cause, the action is steeling. Steeling is wrong. Therefore, the cause is wrong as well.
    If you think it’s ok to steel from a morally corrupt place (steeling is morally corrupt as well) then you are saying that it is ok to poke and eye for an eye. This, if you followed your ethics and values consistantly, would mean you also supported the death penalty for an crime of murder. If you do, then fine, your cool.
    If not, I find it hard to believe that all you wonderful life loving people actually do, then there is a flaw in your logic.

  96. hello all, I understand how complicated this issue is,but it can’t be ignored. Just because an issue is complicated doesn’t mean turn the other cheek. I’m glad someone brought this up because so many people turn into crazed “gotta have it no matter what” brides! I also want a dress I can’t afford, which will test my creativity, but not my morals. Set high standards for yourself, in every aspect. Living with items and choices you can feel good about is worth the effort “expense”.
    Question everything.
    Stephanie 😉

  97. I had my heart set on a dress like Dita Von Teese’s Viv Westwood creation but didn’t want to spend £1000 let alone the £10,000 the original cost.

    I have over a year so I looked on Ebay, specifying ‘Prom’ and ‘Vintage’.

    I found a new dress (coming from a bridal shop that was closing down), that was made in the Uk and I got it for only £50! The only thing it needs is a dryclean having got a little crumpled in storage.

    So first thing – get a tape measure – check your measurements (then add on an inch for movement) and then check out Ebay. A dress can always be taken in.

    There are new dresses, tonnes of beautiful vintage dresses that could be updated cheaply and it is recycling.

    I also got a couple of wonderful dresses for my bridesmaids too for around the same cost!

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