All
Advice
Wedding Porn
Vendors
DIY
ArchivesLet's talk about labels and self-identifying
Features
By
on January 26, 2010
53
Tags: blogging, identity, manifestos
Oh hey look it's a straight wedding!
In this same vein, over the last couple months we've gotten comments from well-intentioned readers concerned about how we title and label the Real Offbeat Weddings on Offbeat Bride. Here's one example: It's too bad we still feel the need to point out that this was a lesbian wedding (I mean, I can't imagine there are too many people who would say "straight wedding")
While I very much appreciate the concerns about labeling, please understand that on Offbeat Bride we always allow couples to self-identify.
Now, of course we want our titles to be descriptive — that's good journalism! But we also want them to respect the people being profiled, so we pull the Real Offbeat Wedding titles directly from the questionnaire submitted by the bride. In the case of Jill & Kimeee's lesbian barn dance & Mad Libs wedding… with goats, when Jill submitted her story to us, she referred to it as a lesbian wedding, and so we did too. I'm certainly not going to censor someone's identity! I describe my own wedding as a "hippie/raver freakfest" and would be irked if someone described it as "Ariel & Dre's nature-loving electronic music-listening eccentric gathering."
Where this gets more challenging is with tagging posts. I use the lesbian wedding tag because I want to make it easier for y'all to see them all in one place. You'll notice if you page through that tag archive that lots of the weddings aren't titled "lesbian wedding" — they're zoo weddings, garden weddings, and art gallery soirees that happen to feature two brides.
When it comes to tags, I try to think about what clusters of posts people might be interested in — I tag short haired and tattooed brides for the same reason that I tag blue wedding dresses and top hats.
But what about the plus-size tag? We only use that when the bride self-identifies as such, because who the hell am I to label someone's body type? On the flip side, it's sort of frustrating because we've featured a TON of fucking gorgeous fuller-figured brides, and I've gotten emails from readers saying "Where can I see plus-size brides?" and I don't have a nice tidy link to send them that shows them the full range of loveliness. I have to say "If you browse through the hundreds of posts on Offbeat Bride, you'll find dozens of plus size brides!"
I know that labels can be a challenging topic for us non-traditional types. Some of us feel comfortable tossing around labels for ourselves, but bristle when other people apply them to us. I think some of this sensitivity gets projected a bit — even when we allow people describe themselves, there's concern that somehow Offbeat Bride prescribing labels onto them.
We do our best to be thoughtful about these issues, but I recognize there's always more to learn when it comes to how people identify and how we label each other. But in the case of the titles on Real Offbeat Weddings, we try to let folks self-identify — which feels to me like the most respectful way to ensure that we get descriptive titles that feel like a good fit for everyone.
@awesomebrandi said
Great point and well said.
Nikki said
I've seen this often on OBB – I'll start reading about a really cool circus/zoo/garden/geek wedding, and am slightly surprised when I see two women getting married. I completely blame the surprise on my own heterocentric thing, but I like that you can see the wedding for its own worth, whether it's two women, a het couple, two men (which, by the way, I'd LOVE to see here!), or one or more transgender people gettin' hitched! B)
H-A said
Tolerance has two sides – one is letting people self-identify, the other is chilling out over labels that other people give you. ie, you do the first by letting people name their own weddings, and the second by making tags like "lesbian" or "steampunk" for the rest of us to understand. I think you covered both sides nicely! I would describe my own wedding along the lines of "romantic, spiritual sunset ceremony in the forest followed by a lovely dinner and full night of dancing through a thunderstorm." I think the rest of my family would describe it as "extremely PURPLE and weird, but moving, even though they seem to have forgotten all references to god." I can either say "meh, fair enough" and move on with life, or get offended that they didn't perceive it the exact same way. So I'm happy that they tolerated a little offbeatness from me, and they're happy that I'm not perpetually intolerant and offended by their views of me. The world needs both sides of tolerance (obviously tolerance requires that labels be free of blantant hurtfulness as well).
H-A said
I'll add that a midwesterner might have labeled my wedding as "shockingly unconventional" and a hard-core left-coaster might have described it as "fairly conventional with a knod toward individuality." (And maybe vice-versa, although we all know which scenario would be more common.) Which is right? Both (although I don't care for either and wouldn't label my wedding that way), and everything in between, depending on your views and local culture, and life is too short for me to get fussed over it. Don't dis people and don't get offended over small innocent things, and the world will be a happier place
Katharine said
It would be real nice if the entire internet were as thoughtful. *sigh*
I don't know how the "feature our wedding!" form filling out goes, but is there an option for the spouse who's filling it out to choose from the list of tags/tag their own entry?
Oh, and also, tagging entries by location would be very cool.
You know what else would be real cool? Gay weddings. With boys. Two of them (or, you know, whatever). The only place I have ever seen them is in Martha Stewart Weddings, and I thought that was pretty darned amazing for something so mainstream.
OffbeatAriel said
All wedding posts are tagged by location. All of 'em!
As for boy/boy weddings, I address this in the Offbeat Bride FAQ. We work our tails off to make Offbeat Bride as inclusive as possible, but ultimately I specialize in creating online communities for women. Offbeat Bride can't be everything.
Amasea said
I'd also suggest having a list of suggested labels (plus-size, lesbian, outdoor, steampunk, midwest, pantsuits, etc), so that submitters could, if the chose, check those boxes — with an explainer saying that the site isn't trying to label anyone, but trying to make it easier for others to find inspiration through searches. That way, someone who doesn't want to be labeled can opt not to check the boxes, while those who don't mind being part of specific searches can opt in for the label, even if they don't "label" themselves.
Renee said
^^ This.
jesscar said
I think this is a great idea!
As someone said earlier, if there was a box to tick "plus size" I would tick it…but if someone asked me if I wanted to be labelled that I would probably feel a little hurt and self consious. Psychology is weird but for some reason I'm okay labelling myself something I wouldnt like others labelling me.
Ariel said
BRILLIANT SUGGESTION, and now in full effect.
FLCLK8 said
This post is yet another reason I always feel so inspired/pleased/generally awesome about this site and the OBT and Ariel in general. As self-proclaimed "queer-spawn" I certainly can understand the challenges of labeling- both one's self and others- and I think Ariel has really deftly handled the issue here. Speaking for myself, I have always found OBB to be a very welcoming, inclusive community and I think it's great that Ariel and the other moderators keep that an active goal, one always to be worked on. I guess overall, I want to say "Thanks" to the staff and all of the my fellow OBBs. (Oh- and agree with other ladies above that a wedding with two grooms would be lovely….perhaps some potential, profileable couples have been shy about posting due to not being "brides")
offbeat_shrie said
Aww thanks… we try UBER hard to make the community positive, affirming and welcoming. It's good to hear that we're succeeding!
alisonz said
I really appreciate you tagging posts as "lesbian weddings"! Of course we want to be seen as no different from any other MARRIAGE, but its not about our marriage, its about the wedding, and that can be really different than your average wedding
Liz said
While I agree that it's awesome to see weddings between two men featured more in general, I think the point of Offbeat Bride is to feature, well, brides. Women are under a lot of pressure to be a certain way for their wedding, and this site is all about teaching them to throw off the weight of that pressure and do exactly what THEY want. I don't think that men experience the same pressure, no matter what their sexual orientation.
But that's just my opinion. If Ariel decided to start featuring guy-guy weddings I'd be totally happy with that, but it would take the focus off of brides and expand the scope of the site – maybe "Offbeat Weddings" would be a better name for it! (I realize I might be horribly closed-minded in assuming that all self-identified "brides" are female, but I've always thought of OBB as being geared towards women, which I think is its intention.)
I would love to see more poly ceremonies on the site, but I think the dearth of them (I only found one semi-poly ceremony when I searched the site, and it merely mentioned polyamory but didn't seem to include more than two people in the ceremony) is due to the fact that they're relatively uncommon in real life. I think the unique issues faced by a poly bride would be fascinating to explore in greater depth.
Amber Mullen said
Wow – I am in love with this post! It's something I never really thought about, but the effort and sensitivity you put into it is why I love this site! 1000 kudos!
PS – agree that I'm sure brides wouldn't mind the opportunity to "self label" their own submissions.
Carren said
I think in this context, of this site, people should not be offended by your tags. You, the person who runs this site, has to use the information you are given to best help others who are looking for specific things. I don't think we should be offended by your tags, unless of course you use "big fat fatty". LOL I mean if someone is super offended by your tag, then we all know we can just email you and you would change it! But for such a super awesome site, we all know your intentions are good and should use what you deem best for everyone else. I'm sure a lot of time, when submitting stories, the girls/guys don't think about all the possible tags that someone might find helpful! You have more experience with that! Just my opinion of course!
Carren said
I think in this context, of this site, people should not be offended by your tags. You, the person who runs this site, has to use the information you are given to best help others who are looking for specific things. I don't think we should be offended by your tags, unless of course you use "big fat fatty". LOL I mean if someone is super offended by your tag, then we all know we can just email you and you would change it! But for such a super awesome site, we all know your intentions are good and should use what you deem best for everyone else. I'm sure a lot of time, when submitting stories, the girls/guys don't think about all the possible tags that someone might find helpful! You have more experience with that! Just my opinion of course!
offbeat_megan said
Believe me, we'd love to see more of them on the site too! We've actually featured two weddings under the polyamory tag, and hopefully we'll get more of them submitted to us in the future.
Sabrina said
Ariel, your features are always an intelligent and inspiring read – whenever I get to read a longer post by you I think "yay!". Thank you for being so inclusive and sensitive to these issues, you are right that there is always more to learn on them.
Emily Ryan said
Wasn't it Audre Lorde who said something about how "definitions should belong to the defined"? (Correct me if I'm wrong; it's been quite a few years since I graduated from my women's studies program!) Well, whoever said it, it's always been a sentiment that feels very true to me, and I want to thank you, Ariel, and the rest of OBB team, for trying to make this site a place where self-identity is encouraged and allowed, even when it's not necessarily convenient. Ticking a set of boxes never seems to cover all the bases in the 'real world', either, does it? ;o)
P.S. As a more general comment–gotta say that I have been LOVING all of the exploratory, editorial style writing you've been featuring lately! Even though my wedding is over and I don't dig on the wedding porn as much anymore, it's pieces like this that keep me checking in here long after I've erased the rest of the wedding-related bookmarks.
Meg said
Right. Because if I was half of a gay couple, and a mixed gender couple told me, "Oh, you're not having a gay wedding, you're just having a regular wedding." I'd be a little, "Look buddy. I don't even have legal marraige rights yet, so why don't you back off a little, huh?"
That said, I think I'd be crazy offended if someone called our wedding a "straight wedding."
So. Well done, well said. I like the idea of letting people literally check off the tags they would like on their post (ahhh, smart back end forms
ginny said
This is such an awesome website! I wish people would lighten up and not get so offended so easily. It should be relatively clear just by browsing the site that no one intends to offend anyone else and that all people are identified equally and with respect among the readers and writers of Offbeat Bride.
OffbeatAriel said
Ah, but that's the internet: a great place to be offended!
mareee said
and everyone knows that the internet is SERIOUS BUSINESS!
chibride said
Ariel and OB team, you all do an amazing job! Your post is well stated and I think this will help clear the air. Keep on keepin' on!
JE$S said
man i love this site. it is so comforting to know that you guys care so much about the people you have featured. this is a great community… you can really tell that everyone here is considerate, and has the best of intentions, even the person who responded to the previous post you referenced was kind-hearted about it.
the tags are defintely a useful part of the site, don't get rid of them!!!
Christa said
I also noticed that the reader survey did not have "bisexual" as an orientation option. Which I thought was more common that a person identifying as "neither or both" a gender (no offense…just pointing it out).
OffbeatAriel said
Ooh — a great point, and a total oversight on my behalf! We're in the final days of the reader survey now, but I'll definitely keep this in mind for the next survey.
Lulu said
Slightly on the topic, when signing up for the OBT it is mandatory to select either male or female. I settled for female with the option of Do Not Display but I wasn't really happy about it.
Ariel said
Yeah, that's a Ning thing. Not an Offbeat thing. We're a victim of the platform in that regard.
Jill said
labels are so complicated. there are plenty of people who find a label empowering, and they enjoy being part of a larger community; and there are also plenty that find the same label demeaning and/or limiting to their full identities.
i think that you hit it right on the mark — allowing people do describe themselves (or their weddings) using the labels they want to (or not) is the best way to handle it. good job navigating these (very choppy) waters!
offbeat_shrie said
So well said, Ariel. I'd like to add that we WANT to make things easier for you to search but we resist labeling because that's what we're about here at OBB… letting you be who you are, without putting you in said box. So understand that when you comment and read these profiles. We're all about self-expression and true-to-selfness, thus the labels and non-labels! (did that make any sense? haha…)
jaycee said
I really like this post. Thanks, Ariel.
The issue of sexual orientations and weddings is interesting to me. I'm bisexual and my fiance is heterosexual. We're not really having a "straight" wedding either, even though we're a heterosexual couple.
Becca said
Maybe, just as you ask posters to title their wedding, you could ask them if they'd like to self-idenitfy as a "plus-sized" bride for example and also ask them if there is any label they'd like to see. Maybe some women just don't use the term but wouldn't object to their post being classified as such. i do, however, think it's useful to have all weddings with two brides be labeled "lesbian-wedding" (or perhaps another term?) because it helps people find those weddings they are interested in.
Dina E. said
Personally I'd be all for "same-sex wedding", but then again I moderate a community myself and I know how hard changing tags can be!
Renee said
I understand what you mean, but that can get sticky too.
If ANYONE EVER asked me if I'd "like to self-identify as plus sized," they'd get followed with an hour of "you think I'm fat??? why would you call me fat??????" and a storm of hysterical crying and angry facebook posts.
Now… of course, it would be easy to say that that's my own erratic insecurity and over-sensitivity – and you'd be right! – but that fact is this: the label that is "empowering" to one (hey, if someone is proud of being plus sized and beautiful, GO FOR IT), is a burning, painful form of branding to another (see above example, hehe).
Karon said
1. I love the idea of allowing members to self-apply the current set of tags to their weddings. While I personally would likely have never mentioned that I am a plus-sized bride, I would recognize that having that tag on my wedding photos might help streamline someone elses' search, and would tag it as such.
2. I may be one of few who would label my wedding a 'straight wedding" – but, then again, of the 14 adults in the room for the ceremony next week, 7 of them are not straight.