The ethics of a cheap off-shore wedding dress
Reader Mail
By
on March 25, 2009
129
I think that stealing a wedding dress design and having it made in China (in a place that is probably a sweatshop) is really unethical. It upsets me, as it both screws the original designer (who is probably a creative type who you would want to hang out with) and the workers ... all for a dress you will wear once.
Then again, I am not poor, and I can afford to pay the designer direct for some of the dresses I like and I will check that they are not made unethically.
Am I just being a judgmental bitch cos I have the money to "do the right thing" here? Am I assuming that people have not thought about these issue, but actually they have and are fine with it? -Anonymous
What a thick and meaty ethical question! Thanks so much for bringing the issue up. Ultimately, it's up to each of us to decide where their consumer values align — this is bigger than weddings. This is about pirating music, buying local produce, and world trade issues. I'm no consumer values expert, so really all I can do is share my personal perspective and values...
Since I tend towards slightly odd clothes that I generally can't find in mainstream stores, I get a thrill out of supporting independent designers — I love the individuality that indie designs provide. When I was planning my wedding, this value translated into not being attracted in the big ticket dresses that I couldn't afford. My goal was to work with a couple indie designers to custom-make something awesome and unique that I could re-wear. I had about a $500 budget, and integrated pieces of a cheap prom dress made in China and hand-crafted elements.
While I personally had no interest in wearing a designer dress, I will say that I have no qualms with off-shore reproduction of name-brand designer wedding dresses through online spots like Kaersen. Many of the commercially-made dresses available at mainstream wedding boutiques are made in China anyway, and I don't think you're doing something inherently awful by taking money out of a big name designer's pocket. Vera Wang is a rich woman who dresses movie stars. The $5k you're not spending one of her wedding dresses isn't going to put her in the poor house. I kind of equate reproducing a designer wedding dress with pirating a Beyonce album.
That said, I think it's a totally different game if you're reproducing a dress made by an independent designer. And heaven forbid if you're reproducing a dress by an indie seamstress. If I heard about someone off-shore reproducing a dress by Chrissy Wai-Ching or Fancy Pony Land, I think I'd lose my shit. That just doesn't fit with my values of prioritizing indie designers. (Then again, part of the magic of indie designers is that they create dresses that aren't easy to rip off. What off-shore dress factory is going to crank-out hand dyed silk in your custom colors?)
This is a way bigger question than just wedding dresses though, and you're right, anonymous: having money gives you the luxury of thinking through this decision with your consumer values held high. For some brides, their consumer values are a big priority in their lives that they translate into their wedding planning.
Other brides may be focused on different offbeat aspects of their wedding — like hand-knitting scarves for each of their bridesmaides, or making sure their gay minister friend officiates, or hand-baking 200+ wedding cupcakes. These folks may think to themselves, "I like that dress I saw in the window, but I spent all my budget on organic catering and my amazing photographer. I'll just have the dress made in China."
Like every other wedding decision, it's an issue of picking your battles, identifying your priorities, and compromising to make the best choice you can.
[I'm sure there are some strong opinions out there on this subject — feel free to share your thoughts in the comments, but if the discussion turns towards judging brides who make decisions differently than you do, I'll likely be closing the discussion pretty quickly.]
About Ariel Meadow Stallings
Author of Offbeat Bride: Creative Alternatives for Independent Brides, Ariel acts as the publisher of all the Offbeat Empire websites. She lives, loves, and dorks out hard in Seattle, WA.
Chris S. said
This issue is beyond wedding dresses. You have similar considerations every time you purchase anything. Where was it made? Where was its components made? How much does the factory pollute? How are the workers treated? Unless you buy everything second hand (which still requires someone to have purchased it new in the first place) it is a dilemma that you cannot escape.
Lianne said
I will preface this by saying that it is up to each bride/ couple to set the priorities for their wedding, and wholeheartedly agree with "picking your battles, identifying your priorities, and compromising to make the best choice you can."
That having been said, I'd just like to address a couple of concerns that I have regarding offshore knockoff dresses.
I value my local small businesses, whether they be an independent coffee shop, the local car dealer, or a bridal shop. The shop where I am getting my (lower cost) designer Made in China dress employees about a dozen people. I can somewhat put myself at rest knowing that my purchase does go towards making sure 12 people in my area continue to have a job.
I have a deep, deep appreciation for indie designers. Recognizing that Vera Wang – and this according to Wikipedia – came from a wealthy family, in my mind, I have to question at what point a designer becomes "big enough" for it to be acceptable to copy their designs. She won't miss a $5k sale, and perhaps it is a high class problem for an indie designer, too, if they get to the level where their designs are in such demand that someone decides to make knock-offs.
My final question is this – where does one draw the line on when a designer is big enough to they won't miss the sale lost to a copycat?
At the end of the day, we all make trade-offs. I set a modest dress budget as well, and perhaps, were I rewind 6 months, I might have gone the route of an indie designer, or a used dress, but there is so much else I'm doing to support small/local/indie businesses, that I'm still able to sleep at night, designer Chinese dress and all!
Ashley said
I recognize the desire to support "indie" designers but just because they are smaller doesn't make their designs any more "theirs" than those of a big name designer. The work of an artist is still theirs, even if they have chosen to outsource the production of that art (or in this case dress) to China.
I fully understand the desire not to purchase something that was made in a sweatshop in China, but that is something very different than stealing the artistic work of someone else. Just because Beyonce or Vera Wang has made it big doesn't give someone the right to steal from them. Their work is still theirs, and if you want it you should really pay for it.
I guess this is a sore subject, since my boyfriend is a musician. I would hate to think that at some point people would decide that his music is "ok to steal" because he got big. Remember, those artists probably did a lot of work to get to the point that they were "big" and they deserve to profit from it if enough people like what they do.
Sarah H. said
I agree with Ashley. If you considering using ideas from an indie designer stealing, I'm not sure how stealing from a "big-name" designer is any different from an "indie" designer. An analogy that pops in my mind is shoplifting. For example, does that mean shoplifting from Wal-Mart is okay, but not your local music store?
Nikki said
The first thing that comes to mind for me is, when does the dress go from being an original design by someone else, to being an original for YOU? If someone were to copy a dress in its entirety, and pass it off as their own, that to me is pirating, and is unethical.
However, once you take this dress's hemline, that dress's sleeve, this other dress's neckline, then you are no longer copying a designer's dress but designing your own dress with inspiration from several other dresses. That, to me, is in no way unethical.
I rarely love every aspect of a dress, so I would be more likely to take parts of several dresses to make one I love. To me, that more akin to designing my own than stealing someone else's.
Re: music – Jason Mraz (per Wikipedia, so take it as you wish) encourages people to make bootleg copies of his concerts, so not all musicians who have made it big have a problem with people copying their music.
Kitty said
I so agree with your custom, "inspired" dress idea. Being a bit of a photoshop wiz myself, that's what I've done…incorporated 5 different dresses into one. I don't see anything unethical about that. It's my own custom creation.
As for the other side of the argument, the sweatshops of China, I always look at it this way: if EVERYONE stopped buying from China, those poor women earning $2 a day would suddenly be out of a job. $2 may not be much, and while I agree it should be more, $2 is still $2! I think we need to think up better ways to help end poverty in China than simply boycotting, because that hurts the employees more than the big corporations. But then, that's just my opinion.
Ana said
I think that the real travesty is the mainstream bridal industry as a whole taking advantage of some woman willing to spend more than they can afford because it's their one day. Not only is this unethical, but it punishes those brides with a more realistic mindset.
I think that the trade off is if a bride purchases a reproduction online or from China, she risks poor quality and delayed shipping. If she purchases from a "local boutique" she risks getting overcharged, additional fees, and unruley alteration fees.
If someone knows a happy medium, please share!!!
Ashley said
Etsy! I finally settled on a very expensive (I didn't know it was expensive when I tried it on! Evil bridal shop consultants!) dress and knew there was no way to afford. So, I turned to one of my favorite sites and put out a request for someone to make a dress similar to that one, for about the $500 that I could afford (which was pushing it, really). I had several bids, and I vetted everyone carefully and ended up with an awesome dress!
(Also, I realize this thread is a little old, but I couldn't resist.)
Kelly said
That's an excellent idea!!
Kitty said
Yup, it's true….prices or low quality? Pick one.
Siouxie said
It would be awesome to be able to afford a designer gown…it would also be awesome to not have to buy a dress made in China. The gown I want is too expensive. I found a knock off dress, but the idea makes me feel terrible because the designer although expensive, is still not a major designer. Therefore I have chosen not to get that dress at all. I feel if it was meant to be I wouldn't feel awful about the decision, which ever choice.
Ariel said
"For example, does that mean shoplifting from Wal-Mart is okay, but not your local music store?"
If you're asking me to clarify my personal position, then the answer is yes. I'm not saying I'd shoplift at all, but I see shoplifting from Wal-Mart as way less morally objectionable than shoplifting from a locally owned store. Heck, some people would see shoplifting from Wal-Mart as an act of protest against their awful employee labor policies.
I'm not that radical in my personal consumer values, but I definitely value indie bizzes more than international corporate retailers.
Andrea said
As a voracious consumer, I have thought about this a lot. I'm comparatively poor but I like and appreciate nice things. To me, its always wrong to buy knock-offs. I don't care if its a purse, a wedding dress, or a pair of shoes. The fact of the matter is that someone, somewhere took the time to create that "thing," whatever it may be. It came out of their creative process. If you can't afford Vera Wang or Maggie Sottero, then don't even entertain the thought. Don't peruse the pages of Brides magazine looking for a dress that you will be sick over b/c you can't afford it. If you love their design, and no other, then its worth it to figure out a way to have the dress of your dreams without stealing someone's design and having it made for yourself.Its the same as figuring out how you can get that amazing mixed media piece to hang above your couch. They came up with something that speaks to you. Fashion is wearable art. A person should never be punished for being sucessful. Its never okay to steal from anyone, no matter how wealthy they are. Stealing is stealing.
Amanda said
"Just because Beyonce or Vera Wang has made it big doesn't give someone the right to steal from them. Their work is still theirs, and if you want it you should really pay for it."
I understand the sentiment behind this. However, is that Vera Wang wedding dress (many of which are very simple) worth $5000+ dollars? I feel that there comes a point when it goes beyond selling your artwork and into purposely trying to rip people off. What does the production of those dresses cost, especially when the work making the dresses is still probably outsourced to China or elsewhere anyways?
I don't feel any of her dresses are worth $5000 and I know if I went to an indie designer here I could get an original dress for much less than that. I feel like the difference between Vera Wang and the indie designer is that, the indie designer is not trying to rip me off. I can guarantee that every stitch in that dress will be made by that local seamstress, and I'm helping an individual stay employed at a fair wage. Vera Wang, is not doing that. Vera Wang, like much of the Wedding industry, is taking advantage of the outrageous amount of money brides will shell out for their "big day".
I guess I also have a bit of the "Robin Hood" mentality about it (you know, still from the rich, give to the poor). Probably because I come from a family of service members and blue collar workers whose hard work and service to their country has earned them only a modest salary. My fiance will make around $29,000 this year while in Iraq running 12 hour missions, getting shot at and worrying about IEDs all while being thousands of miles away from everyone and everything he loves. I think Vera Wang will be just fine without getting $5,000 dollars of that money for my wedding dress. We need that money to put food on our table – she, however, will still be living quite comfortably without it. Therefore, no I wouldn't lose any sleep over having someone else (probably my mom or a seamstress we know, though) sew a knock-off designer gown.
That's just how I look at it, though. I'm glad that Ariel opens these issues up for discussion because it is nice to see this question answered from different perspectives.
Sarah H. said
Well then I guess our views differ:)
I know that Wal-Mart is an international corporation (and maybe I should have used a different company like Costco that isn't as contentious), but even large corporations are made up of the employees like the cashiers, door greeters, and stockers. Or in the case of the wedding industry, the people who sew the dresses, etc. A big-name designer doesn't consist of only the rich big-namer, but hundreds of employees as well.
Just to push the envelope and thought process a little further (and this is to whoever feels there's a difference b/t big business and indie designers, not just Ariel): At what point is it okay to steal from large companies verses indie businesses? At $1 million in revenue? $150 billion? When it's publicly-traded? A certain number of employees? What about franchises, where local folks might own the business, but they have a national name? What about corporations that provide goods that can't be provided by indie businesses (i.e., electronics)? Should they be valued more? What if the indie businesses purchase their raw goods at Wal-Mart?
Lots to think about! This is a good post though
Sierra said
The point at which I would consider it morally acceptable to steal from a company is the point at which I consider it morally objectionable to buy the product at all. I dont shoplift, but I have, on occasion, shopped at target, or walmart, and when I have, I have consistently fought with myself in the dressing room, because it seems more ethical to me to steal from them than pay, with the supporting an evil corporation that treats their employees that badly that goes along with it. (the answer for me, obviously, is to not shop there at all.). Because I'm a coward, and would be mortally embarrassed if I were caught stealing, I've never done it. When I shop at an ethically run business, or even a not absolutely evil business, I have no such moral struggle. And as far as indie businesses go, stealing would be stealing from my community, or a community much like it, and totally not ok. Just figured I'd give insight into where this line is for one person.
Rachel said
FWIW clothing is not "copyrighted" so it's not really pirating to make knock-offs of dress designs.
I'd also like to point out that a lot of these factories in China are the same ones making the dresses for big name designers, they just make extra ones to sell for less because they don't have the big designer name attached to it.
So what's more ethical? Taking advantage of these laborers and not paying them their "fair share" from the expensive dresses or just buying direct from them and taking money away from the designer? It's something that everyone has to come to terms with on their own.
I, myself, am pretty ambiguous about it all. I'm making my own dress so it's a moot point for me.
Meg said
I'm with Ashley… I think copying a design is copying a design. I love indie designers too, goodness knows, and I'm not a fan of Vera Wang's prices, but! I'm uncomfortable with the idea that if someone becomes successful or very profitable, they somehow are less deserving of their rights as artists. Following this line of thinking through means that while Indie designers are cool in our books now, if they grow to big or too successful, we will no longer value them, or will consider them "sellouts" who we can steal from. Since I'd love nothing more than to see great indie designers making tons of money off their amazing talent, I don't want to think this way.
That said, I think my bigger problem is having your wedding dress made overseas in conditions that are probably not great. I totally agree that you have to pick your battles, so I'm saying this with a large grain of salt, but at least theoretically there is a difference between buying a dress off a rack that maybe was made in China, and personally commissioning a dress that you know is a copy of another artists work to be made in China under not great conditions. It's the difference between passive and active ethical consumer choices.
All that said, I also agree with Nikki. If you take a design and use it as inspiration, that is absolutely fair use.
Marcia said
As a seamstress and aspiring designer myself…. If I can look at a dress, figure out on my own how much fabric was used, where the seams are, darts, bead, etc. all go, I've earned the right to make that dress. Drafting patterns from something you see in a window (or photos, or drawings) is not easy by any stretch of the imagination. Furthermore, that dress won't be the same designer dress. You could opt to change the hem, move a zipper, open up the back or neckline, omit beading entirely… Some designers also sell their patterns to commercial pattern companies for $15 instead of $5000, so this could be a more ethical way to get the designer dress you want, support a local seamstress and not steal from anyone.
Alison said
This is an interesting blog post and discussion. I prefer to shop locally, but I did consider ordering my wedding dress from Kaersen because I hadn't found anything I liked at my favorite shop.
In the end, and this might be an option for Ana in comment 6, I went to a local boutique which sells designer clothing and wedding gowns, and I purchased a bridesmaid's gown for about $350. My gown was made in the US, and I kept (at least some of) my dollars in the local economy.
If you're interested, this is my dress, color and all.
Tamara said
So off topic but I LOVE that dress!
a-bomb said
artists/designers copy and inspire each other all the time.
how many musicians sing cover songs? (a lot, including: madonna, n.i.n., iron and wine).
how many people have ikea furniture? those are cheap,knock off designs.
how many people buy clothes at target? guess what, part of my friend's job at target corp. is to go shopping to find high end clothes to replicate for target.
how many people have posters/copies of an original piece of artwork?
how many people buy generic instead of name brand?
it's really all the same thing. part of the risk of being an artist/designer is people copying your work. but honestly, how many wedding dresses are truely original? their inspiration came from somewhere, most likely another wedding dress. i see nothing wrong if you see something you like, and you can do-it-yourself and make it cheaper… why not?
Jess said
I agree with Ashley. It doesn't seem just to say that just because someone has "made it big", which basically just means someone has taken notice of what a good designer you are, then it becomes okay to rip you off.
That being said, art is always being ripped off in one way or another. How many ARTISTES do you know that think they're individuals but clearly are ripping off Pollock or Worhol? But to copy something and call it an original is a crime.
But I also can't blame brides who can't afford the price of an individual OR big-name designer. I'm not wealthy and I can't afford to buy all the local organic food and carbon-free clothes I would like to. I mean, let's face it — Fancy Pony Land is just as outrageously expensive as Vera Wang. Indie or no, I can't justify $2000 for ANY dress, no matter a dress I wear once. Why not buy for $200 from a REALLY small-time seamstress and donate the other $1800 to a worthy cause?
I like being an individual, but I don't think that individualism should come with a high price tag, just because it's "different." Then again, I disagree with the outrageous prices of art pieces for their "uniqueness", which in my opinion just support the long-standing idea that only the wealthy can appreciate art in their own home. But that's another issue altogether.
Even when you do pick an indie designer, I wouldn't assume that you're automatically picking an environmentally or ethically "cleaner" gown. Where did they get their fabric, where was their sewing machine made, or their yarn or thread? The textile industry in India and China is huge.
So I guess I'm torn — yes, I do find it objectionable that people rip one another's art off, indie or no. But the fact that it cost so much in the first place (either for "individuality" or for the "brand name") is equally objectionable, and I can't blame brides who just want to look the way they imagined on their wedding day.
amelia said
I'm with the idea that these things are often copied, not copyrighted, and more often than not, these are the same dress factories working for the major designer. Honestly, I think working directly with them (the dress-makers in China) is closer to fair-trade than buying it from a bridal shop. They set the price. To you, it's cheap. To them, it's almost certainly more than they'd be paid to make the same dress for a major wholesaler.
We all know the WIC is trying to line their pockets with us. I can't support that. I can't. I'm all for the little guy, but I make $26K a year. I'd rather line pockets in China, thanks. Where the tiny amount I can afford to spend goes a lot further.
Jessica said
Ariel, thanks for opening up this discussion. I appreciate everything being said here. As a person with a strong sense of social justice I was so confused by what route to go when choosing my wedding attire. I had wanted to revamp my mom's own homemade dress to avoid all the issues (small budget, concern for how the dress is made, etc.). Unfortunately, mom is a much shorter woman and the fabric is falling apart so I had to deal with the issues.
Everyone here brings a lot of good questions to the table. It certainly is a battle of the lesser evils, especially for those on really tight budgets. I'm just glad to know there are brides out there contemplating their social responsibility and attempting some solution rather than making choices out of selfishness and ignorance.
In the end I purchased from a local shop that carries only affordable (not ripped off) designs. The other compromise was letting my mom purchase my dress and fulfill her dream of seeing her eco-feminist daughter wear a white wedding dress. But that's a whole different battle.
Shoshanna said
I come at this from a slightly different perspective since I create my own knitting patterns and frequently see knit items in stores or whatever that I want to make for myself. I've looked into the copyright stuff and there is no legal objection to making knock-offs. So, legally, it isn't stealing. Legally, even if it looks the same, you're fine as long as you never saw a pattern.
That said, knock-offs are kind of sketchy and if someone wants to buy something that I've made from looking at a picture, I'll usually say no or just charge them for the yarn. However, I would not equate this copying to pirating, since one is illegal and one is not. There's also a difference between reproduction and theft…a big one that should be recognized.
In many ways, I agree with Jess. I can't justify purchasing a Wai-Ching or Fancy Pony dress anymore than I can justify purchasing a Vera Wang, though I'm not sure I would completely equate Wai-Ching with Vera Wang, all things considered. Still, they're all outside my price range. Part of my "off-beat statement" is not spending an arm-and-a-leg on a dress. However, I object to David's Bridal, so I'm buying from a local seamstress from $450, which IS in my price range and I know where my money is going. My dress will be custom made to my measurements with my fabric and the pattern I picked out along with any embellishments I want. Score! And I can feel good about my choice while still staying in budget.
Shoe said
Ariel, I don't think an indie business, an indie designer or indie anything can be more valuable than a non-indie designer or their business. It doesn't make any sense. Does this mean the more successful and less indie your website becomes the less we should value it? Of course not!
Generally something is not considered indie anymore when it becomes successful and popular. I don't think you can say something is less valuable because they became successful. your favourite indie designer could easily hit the big time. Will you no longer like them and think its ok to steal from them then? At what point exactly in my success will it be ok for people to start stealing my designs? Very strange attitude, I cannot get my head around it!
I guess its this mix of opinions and attitudes that make the world go round!
Val said
It's interesting to read the concerns around this issue. For me, it's not about stealing art (which is an issue in itself) but rather, human rights. David's Bridal runs a full on sweat shop in China. Pay, working conditions and living conditions are sub par. I personally do not want to support a business like that. yes, I had the money to get a Wai-Ching dress and am proud that the woman who measured me will be the one making it! but the truth is, if a bride can't afford a designer or even Indie gown there are ways to make it work and not support the machine. There a all sorts of consignment shops, less expensive exciting options (Ariel's outfit can speak to that).
The fact is, this is how I live my life. I am conscious about where the food, clothing, etc. come from and if I have to sacrifice a little more money to keep it local and organic, that's what I'm gonna do.
Jess said
Shoshanna — would love to know who your seamstress is! The problem with going with small-time seamstresses is the risk of getting someone who isn't so good at what they do as you'd like. Good seamstresses, especially ones who build quality dresses from stratch, are so hard to come by nowadays. As much as I would like to support small-time tailors, I also still want a polished-looking dress.
Becky said
I think that there are two separate issues that we need to parse out here:
1) Is copying a design stealing?
2) If it is, is it more "ok" to steal from one group than another?
If you believe that copying a design (without the pattern) is not stealing, then it really doesn't matter. I'd argue that most dresses are pretty similar, and you'll find a lot of overlap within the market. Additionally, when you pay for a designer dress you aren't just paying for the look, you are paying for the construction, the expertise, and the labor.
If you do believe that copying a design is stealing, I can't see how it is better to steal from one group than another. Yes, one is having an arguably harder time making a living, but your moral culpability is the same. Stealing is stealing.
Additionally, when you download music, Beyonce might not be hurt, but she only gets something like 10 cents per album. The rest goes to a number of different people who work fairly close to minimum wage; from the sound editors to graphic designers to CD manufacturers.
Webec said
"I'm not saying I'd shoplift at all, but I see shoplifting from Wal-Mart as way less morally objectionable than shoplifting from a locally owned store."
amen!!!
Webec said
Here's another solution: if you find a designer dress you love, why not have your local indie seamstress recreate it for you?
My 1950's Dior dream dress would be impossible to find so I had my lovely seamstress who lives a few miles away recreate it for me. Cost about $250!